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meta link: to those on sf-drama regarding rapefic by anonymous
children of dune - leto 1
seperis
to those on sf-drama regarding rapefic by anonymous, posted on fail_fandonanon. Today is suspend your dislike of anonymeme day, if the excuse is needed. Anonymeme etiquette requires posting anon; today's the first time I thought it was worth not ever being able to say again I didn't participate in anonymeme, because that deserved a response.

Context, especially the superthreads on pages two and three. The post spanned most of Wednesday and some of early Thursday so at this point it is pretty much dead

Warning: This content is triggery for survivors of sexual assault. It is not safe. If you need more specific warnings as to make an informed judgment, please leave a comment.

So this is surprisingly early in the day that I wish it were already over. It may be a record.

ETA: I have no idea how I forgot this. Wank Report's report; the OP of the SFD post comments.

Posted at Dreamwidth: http://seperis.dreamwidth.org/61771.html. | You can reply here or there. | comment count unavailable comments


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That post creeps me right the fuck out. As someone who, you know, has mental issues, I can safely say that this sort of 'morality' play is the LAST THING a therapist really cares about as long as you are safe, sane (i.e. no sticking cocks in electrical sockets, which might come under safe, but I feel it deserves its own category) and consensual. Understanding your own mind is completely different than your happy place being a possible indicator for moral decay. Jesus. Safe and consensual sex is always moral (okay, insert adultery caveat here) and reading about kinky sex is like, 12 times removed from actively participating.

*INCOHERENT WITH RAGEYNESS*

There was some of careful BUT BDSM AND RAPE FANTASY UNDER THESE SPECIFIC BDSM CIRCUMSTANCES IS FINE dancing which--you know, was actually kind of funny in retrospect.

I'm like, fighting the urge to send email to all my friends and sneidng them to be supportive of the anon and yes, that does smack of condescending, but it's like I can't think of anything else to do. Like change society. *hands*

I saw that BDSM dance, omg. I'm sure it's because BDSM is rife with 'assumptions' about what it's really about. *eyerolls* You and me babe, once we're married we'll honeymoon and then take over the world.

God, that was such a shitstorm of "fantasy rape role play is okay but if you read erotic non con you are contributing to rape apologism!!"

*facepalms*

I have a massive dubcon/coerced consent kink for very specific reasons and what I really need to be told is that I'm making more women get raped.

I don't get why that's different. Like, it's funtimes as long as a woman has someone else involved like, why do I need someone else to hear me give permission for it, you don't trust my word that I consent to events going on in my own head? I don't claim to be a master of logic but I feel there's some kind of failure going on there.

I have a massive dubcon/coerced consent kink for very specific reasons and what I really need to be told is that I'm making more women get raped.

The only way that argument works for me is if they're saying it's damaging to the woman to do it to herself, but that comes back to the assumption that non-con kink is a non-standard and research has proven it's very, very standard both in very mild forms from light dubcon Regency romance to the stuff that ends with coma!barty and further. There are legion the ways men and women kink for lack of control; it's not like this is new. And I never did a clear explanation why rapefic was totally different.

There's a part of me--and I can't back this other than how women are treated in anything regarding sexuality--that rape fantasy would make everyone a lot less uneasy if it wasn't so proactive. There's argument about mixed messages and normalization and how can you like something that is about your own debasement, which misses the point. In human history, this is the first time that rape isn't a property crime against a man.

As a women-are-property-but-own-themselves, it's all about keeping the property nice now that we own it and overlooking the entire goddamn point; a woman is not property and rape is not about damaging the property, rapists are not thinking about how they are trespassing on someone else's lawn, it's about violation of will, about having the power to force on her something she does not want. Fantasy, by definition, is a woman's will above all, and her power to enforce it.

But then it may be uncomfortable to argue about how women shouldn't do it if you have to actually conceptualize "You are evil and wrong for violating your own will." Then you kinda sound crazy. Protecting our property rights metaphorically sounds better. Then you can still tell women they own their property wrong without having to actually say a woman has no personal will.

Just a two-cents thought about "rape fic" vs visual/video male-targeted pornography featuring rape.

I think that beyond the visual/textual divide (which is valid), there is (in *general*) a significant difference in how men as a group use video pornography and how fangirls as a group use smutty fic. (caveat that everyone's a special snowflake bla bla bla)

By and large, when a guy goes to use a piece of visual porn, it's being used almost exclusively as a functional tool, and its use tends to be limited to that context. That is, your average guy is going to go 'hey, I'm in the mood to wank', pops in Ass Blasters 7, click to the favorite scene of that blond by the pool w/ all the baby oil, hand on cock, wank wank wank, oh that made my dick particularly hard, rewind replay, wank wank wank, squirt, turn off video,(hopefully) wash hands, go make a sammich or take a nap.

I exaggerate, but you get the idea. For the most part, porn is a masturbation enhancement tool and it's very rarely used for a hell of a lot more than that. So, (if you're going to come down on fake-rape-vids, which I'm not necessarily, just for arguement's sake), part of what might make rape vids for male jerk off consumption inherently more problematic than, say, some Snape rapes hermione in a coma fic is as follows.

If a dude gets into rape vids as his wank-fodder of choice, it's a lot easier to see how a twice daily replay of the rapeyer bits, directly in front of him, every time he gets his dick hard, every time he squirts, might possibly wear a grove into his sexual response patterns. In some respects, the porn a guy picks up isn't necessarily given much more thought and analysis and reflection than the vibrator a woman picks up. It's not a narrative with erotic elements to him. It's a tool to get his dick hard that happens to come in narrative form.

(again, with the caveat that this is a broad generalization, snowflakes, etc).

WHEREAS, while ladies wank (I certainly do) and fan girls certainly wank to erotic stories, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of women don't stick their hands down their panties every time they click through to an NC-17 fic, nor do they only click through to them when they're in the mood to diddle themselves. Sometimes? Yes. We all read for different reasons? OF course.

BUT, I'd bet you anything that 99 times out of a hundred, when your average guy pops in Ass Blasters 7, he's doing it with the specific and single minded intent of grabbing his dick and making it squirt with some gaping anal creampies as lovely mental wallpaper.

IDK what the percentage of 'ooo, PWP, let me grab my vibe' or 'I want to hump a pillow, where's my Snarry chan' is. But, the point is, most of us read what we consider smut (even the PWP stuff) for a whole host of reasons that aren't always even directly related to immediate sexual arousal. Hell, if I diddled myself every time I read smutfic, I'd have rubbed my clit clean off years ago.


SO (what's your point, sville), my point is that a man using a simulated rape video as his favorite wank fodder is far, far more likely wear a mental groove in terms of rape imagery being the number one (or only) thing that gets his dick as hard as he likes. Whereas people (men or women) who like the dynamics at play in well done non-con or dub-con textual erotica are going to use it in situations other than 'this is the lever I'm using directly on my libido for this particular orgasm hunt', it's going to tend to be part of a more varied diet of entertainment input, diluting its effect, and it's much less likely to be the skipping record I return to time and time again when I want to get off.

I wank to fic. I've wanked to mainstream visual hardcore heteromale targeted porn. But I've read plenty of sexy fic without any intention of arousing myself to the point of orgasm, whereas I'd bet any honest dude will tell you that pretty much the only reason he ever puts on video porn is with the specific intent of increasing the speed/intensity of the orgasm he's about to induce. He doesn't put much more analysis into it than I put into choosing which vibrator or dildo I'll be using.

Therefore, a guy who has a lot of rapey videos in his collection is a lot more likely to normalize rapey vibes as something he might (consciously or not) want to work into his RL sex life (and/or is more likely to wear a deep enough groove that he has trouble getting off without the rapey vibes). Where as a woman with a lot of non-con on her delicious bookmarks is a) less likely to use that exclusively for wank fodder purposes and only wank fodder purposes, b) is more likely to have a varied wank fodder diet in addition to non-con, c) isn't as likely to use it as a 'this is directly in front of me while I get off' tool. That can happen, but there are many ways to use textual erotica as a masturbation enhancement tool.

Actual hardcore vids? The (only real) point is to have it on your retinas as you squirt. And that's just a fundamentally different pathway you're beating. Both have the potential to normalize rapey vibes as an acceptable arousal enhancement (and it's debatable as to whether that's intrinsically problematic, as well as whether it's more problematic to beat that path in someone with a dick vs. someone without). BUT, in one case, it's much more directly connected with the lizard brain, and with arousal only. In the other, there's far more room for reflection, and getting other stuff out of it besides an unexamined RAPE IS HAWT.

THAT is why I'd be far more inclined to look askance at a guy with a lot of rapey porn in his dvd stack than I would at a girl with a lot of non con themed erotica on her bookshelf. And I say this as someone who has purchased and enjoyed (for myself, and for my male partner) more hardcore male oriented troofax porn DVDs than I could count on two hands.

As for why I'm saying this here rather than over there, um, I actually respect your thoughts on the matter, where as I'm fairly sure that posting this over there is only going to lead to circular arguments that will eat up my whole day.

well, now i feel an urge to go read some hot non-con.

Thanks for the heads up, but after a quick look, I'm staying far away from this.

Oh, what the fuck. What the FUCK.

I made the mistake of clicking the "context" link and now I want to slam my head into something hard, repeatedly.

I'm just very glad that I do not recognize any names of the main offenders there, but holy shit. That is some seriously fucked-up stuff going on in there. "Your kink is not okay and I'm totally justified in judging you and not wanting you anywhere near me." WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

...okay, I used "fuck" a lot in there, but as a person with a wide and far-ranging set of things I like to read and write in fanfic, I can't help but take that shit pretty damn personally.

The thought I had last night while grocery-shopping, that there's no way in hell I'm jumping into the wankstorm to share with those on sf_d, is that the little summation regarding not contributing to rape (culture) being more important than getting yourself off (with the heavy implication that anyone who thinks otherwise has some severe moral issues quite aside from the question of the subject matter that does it for them) is a false dichotomy:

Suppression of the free exploration and expression of women's sexuality is also part of rape culture -- a huge fucking part, a necessary underpinning of the "'no' sometimes means 'yes'" myth. Because to believe that "no" means "yes," you have to believe that (nice, decent) women won't say "yes" when they mean it, and women have to be trained that they aren't allowed to admit to the things they want. Let alone find out what they really do want, so they have a definite "yes" to compare to their reaction when their date wants something they're ambivalent about agreeing to. Because once you believe that women are never enthusiastic about sex, you believe that there is always a certain degree of pressure or coercion to get them to consent, and from that point on it's just a hazy subjective line marking the distinction between "acceptable levels" of seduction or coercion and outright rape.

So, yeah, not allowing women to write rape fic if it gets them and their (also-female) readers off would in fact be contributing to rape culture.

...I should... not look at that, right?

I am just made really uncomfortable by people who are arrogant enough to pass moral judgement on others based on the thinnest of on-line interaction, not to mention the range of people in that original thread piping up with sweeping statements on how rape survivors must feel and react as a means of supporting their points.

Why do they find it difficult to draw the line between fantasy explored in a way where no one gets hurt and any situation in which in real life people are in real life assaulted and harmed? One does not equal the other. Being squicked by someone else's kink does not make you morally superior to them.

If anything, these so-called morally superior, judgemental individuals are the ones crossing the line and causing IRL harm by undermining fandom's safe-place status.

Edited at 2010-11-13 10:26 am (UTC)

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