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people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation


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FYI: The Vancouver Eastside Missing Women
children of dune - leto 1
seperis
Part A

Phones down at work. Bored.

Part B: The Vancouver Eastside Women

I have no idea how many people followed any of this case, but if this doesn't turn into a very creepy Hollywood movie, I'll be surprised.

Serial Killing Pig Farmer Found Guilty of Murder

Short version is kind of the title there. Long version is here. He was convicted of six counts of second degree murder but is accused of twenty-six and is suspected in over sixty. According to the article above, he'll be eligible for parole in ten years for the torture and murder of six women. He will be tried for the other twenty, but no date has been set yet.

These are the names of the women he killed:

Mona Wilson
Sereena Abotsway
Marnie Frey
Brenda Wolfe
Andrea Joesbury
Georgina Papin

Here is a link to the pictures and stories of twenty-six of the missing women.

Linked in the website:

How Lindsay Kines and Sun reporters broke missing women story (from 1998 to 2002)

The website also links to other sites and organizations helping to track missing and exploited women.

ETA on parole issue - em_h answers in comments on thisc concern.


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The fact that that guy could be eligible for parole after ten years is mind-boggling to me.

What the hell, Canada? What the hell?

I can't get over that either, and I honestly can't think about it. Six second degree murder convictions. And parole in ten years.

I don't know enough about Canadian justice system to wonder if that's normal or what happened there.

I watch a lot of true crime tv on Court TV and A&E, and I just recently saw another case in Canada with there was a murder conviction and they said that the guy would be eligible for parole in a ridiculously short time. I can't remember the details now because, well, my memory sucks, but that stuck with me because I had the same reaction to that as I did to this story.

*twitch*

I wish serial killing was it's own very special category sometimes. While no murder is more or less tragic or important than another, serial killers (and for that matter, mass murderers) are in their own category of evil and/or sick.

"Eligible" doesn't mean he'll get it. He won't. That's not even in question. Ten years happens to be the minimum time before you can apply for parole for second-degree murder, and that's fixed. The number of convictions doesn't make it variable. But applying and getting parole are two very different things. He's not getting it. He's not getting out in his lifetime. That's perfectly clear.

What troubles me is that the jury went for second-degree when the original charge was first. I don't know every detail of what happened in the courtroom. Maybe they decided he didn't have the mental capacity to form a deliberate plan. Maybe they felt he wasn't the primary responsible person, but in that case I'm very very troubled that someone else (his brother, to be specific) is not in the dock.

I mean, I'm sure the jury had their reasons, and they may have been good reasons. But it is kind of like saying that murder isn't so bad when it's prostitutes.

(hope you don't mind the drive-by: friends-of-friends list ... like many people, I have strong feelings about this).

Oh feel absolutely free; I don't post publicly if I don't want commentary or further info, which you have provided here, so thankyou *very* much. Will amend post to reflect.

Ten years happens to be the minimum time before you can apply for parole for second-degree murder, and that's fixed. The number of convictions doesn't make it variable. But applying and getting parole are two very different things. He's not getting it. He's not getting out in his lifetime. That's perfectly clear.

Sooo glad to hear it.

What troubles me is that the jury went for second-degree when the original charge was first. I don't know every detail of what happened in the courtroom. Maybe they decided he didn't have the mental capacity to form a deliberate plan. Maybe they felt he wasn't the primary responsible person, but in that case I'm very very troubled that someone else (his brother, to be specific) is not in the dock.

I'm pretty bewildered on that poitn as well. While I know armchair lawyering is a bad idea, I just--it freaks me out. I'm just not sure why a first-degree wouldn't be possible in a case like this.

From what I've read (which is by no means exhaustive) people believe that the jury may have been swayed enough by the defense's argument (ie, that he was aware but not involved) to give him second degree rather than first, on the grounds that he might not be the primarily responsible party. It's fairly moot, though - with six life sentences, he's not getting out of prison, even if he's eligible to apply for parole.

True. The crimes library thing does mention other possible people involved as well, so--*sighs*.

I'm still kind of reeling from the first time I heard about this and reading the crimes library report a few years ago. I still just boggle.

I *think* part of the second-degree decision was that they didn't feel they had convincing evidence that Robert Pickton was definitely the one who did the actual killing -- he wasn't the only person living on that farm-- and perhaps were afraid that a first-degree conviction could be appealed and overturned. Evidently he has a very good lawyer.

I guess I have to accept that the prosecution doesn't believe they have a viable case against the other Pickton brother, but it troubles me a whole lot that he's still walking around free.

And of course, if the police had taken all this seriously when women started disappearing, good evidence would be one hell of a lot easier to come by than it is a decade or two after the fact.

And of course, if the police had taken all this seriously when women started disappearing, good evidence would be one hell of a lot easier to come by than it is a decade or two after the fact.

You know, that does bother me. It's not that I don't get their reasoning on how often/transient certain groups are; but this was ridiculous in *how long* they seemed to be unaware/denying/not paying attention. There's got to be a modern way to be able to--hmm, I want to say tag certain types of missing/murdered, but that really doens't replace people noticing patterns, and I feel this should have been noticed.

Well, the women working the downtown Eastside noticed. Not only that, their friends and families *told police about rumours about a Port Coquitlam pig farm in 1998*. Seriously, the only conclusion I can come to is that the police didn't think that drug-addicted prostitutes were worth the effort.

I hate to admit it, but I agree with you on that one.

EVERYONE knew it. Just no one bothered to do anything.

There are similar stories in the First Nations communities in Saskatchewan and there are rumors here in Winnipeg, but the police never do anything about them.

Seriously, the only conclusion I can come to is that the police didn't think that drug-addicted prostitutes were worth the effort.

That's pretty much what we think.

He's never getting parole and he's never getting out -- I don't think anyone has to worry about that. But he still needs to be tried for the other 20 (and if there was someone else involved as there might well have been, they too need to be found and tried. Sadly, there is one group of people who also bear a terrible responsibility in this and that is the Vancouver Police force at the time, who refused to investigate the disappearances despite repeated pleas from the community. They will hever be made to answer for their utter disregard for human life and the way it allowed the killings to go on and on.

Totally agreed. It's terrifying when you note the sheer numbers--only twenty six women are currently attributed to him, but there's *many more* that are missing/turned up dead and there's nothing that's done to track them and find out what happened to them.

At first I had no idea what the case was refering to, and then I thought, oh yeah, Pickton. Here it's just refered to as the Pickton trial.

He's a sick bastard. He still faces 20 or so more murder charges in Jan, I hope. If the crown doesn't screw it up.

but if this doesn't turn into a very creepy Hollywood movie, I'll be surprised.


Hasn't it already been fictionalized as arc on DaVinci's Inquest?

(Deleted comment)
it was a tremendously well written and acted show, IMO.

I think so too, it was an awesome show. It felt very real the way it dealt with RL constraints and issues, and characters. It's my fvorite procedural series. So in that sense the case maybe hasn't been fictionalized in a creepy Hollywood movie thing yet...

After having sat on a jury last week I can now understand how these verdicts come back. I swear to god people thought they were straight out of a tv programme, spending their time pouring over and investigating the nitty gritty in order to find ways that the guy might be innocent, even if in the case I was on he had a taped confession, had been under surveilance and was tripped up on so many lies when giving evidence that it was almost painfully funny.

People get lost in the details and forget about the big picture, like say, how obviously guilty a person can be and the art of using a little bit of common sense. They want to satisfy the law but they forget about paying mind to the concept of justice.

Twenty-six lives taken away means a hell of a lot of people affected by what this man has done. It's sickening.

I do not know about the Canadian justice system or any other for that matter but, in theory (though not always in practice), the American justice system is predicated on the notion that it is better to let ten guilty go free than imprison one innocent.

It is possible to take that concept too far, certainly, and it would seem so in the case you sat jury on. But for my own self I must say I would rather people search for innocence in a person rather than for guilt. Those who search for guilt nearly always find it, whether or not it truly lies in the person they see it in. And that is a path that ends in a worse parody of justice than guilty walking free.

Certainly many disagree with the whole underlying concept and they are surely not without fair points. Fanaticism is the true enemy, in either scenario. But, as I said, for myself: I would rather we search fanatically for innocence than guilt.

NZ's based on the British Westminster system, and yes, we too have our foundation of law in that those that go before the courts are innocent before being proven guilty and that it is up to the Crown to present a case against the accused. The person had been proven guilty on 21 of 25 charges in the case I sat on, it was only nitpicking over minor details that eventually let him off the last four charges and everyone in that room had said that they knew him to be guilty, so you can imagine my frustration. Personally I would prefer a level headed group of 12 people where fanatiscim was removed completely. While the interests of the accused have of course got to be taken into consideration, and the matter not to be taken lightly, the victims in this case I feel should also have been considered and a more, shall we say, common sense approach, taken. Nevertheless he has now got to go back for another trial for the 50 counts against him that were committed when he was on bail.

Charles Manson still comes up for parole too. He's not going to get it of course. This is sadly not surprising, but very scary in the way that makes me consider purchasing firearms.

It's already been said, but he's never getting out of prison. I'll be very surprised if he isn't declared a dangerous offender, which would not only keep him in prison for life, but impose special conditions on his incarceration.

Part of the reason the jury gave him second degree was because the judge had them so isolated from the news and public opinion, and a lot of the evidence that was publicly known was inadmissible in court (because, I guess, Pickton's lawyer was just that good...), and so the jury couldn't take it into consideration. But he's still going to be tried for the other murders, and the way the case (by which I mean the grouping of victims) has been divided means that he may be forced to implicate the others that were in on the serial killing (his brother, his sister, a butcher associated with the farm... it's all really sickening) - or so I think, though don't quote me on it. He's never going to get out, that's a given; it's just... the women were killed deserved more than that, and it's horrific not to be able to give it to their memories.

I used to live in Vancouver, and I have been through the downtown eastside. It's really hard to understand the kind of environment it is, and the kind of mindset it instills in its inhabitants, without having been there personally. It's not surprising in the least that the murders went untracked and un-investigated for so long, in part because yes, the sex workers and transients are an invisible demographic (not only to the police - but to everybody outside of the community; seriously, passers-by literally don't see street people anymore, it is like Neil Gaiman's "Neverwhere", they just don't exist to middle-and-upper-middle-class career men and women), but also because of the huge time lag between disappearance and missing person's report, and also due to the confusing nature of whether it was really one person/group of people behind the killings, or separate operators within the same location. It's difficult to put a puzzle together when you don't know where or even what the pieces are. That aside, the police DID leave it too long, and DID send the message that sex workers' lives are somehow worth less than the lives of those with more 'respectable' professions. It's unforgivable and inexcusable and infuriating that their negligence allowed for further murders to occur.

(This whole topic is close to my heart as I have childhood friends who have grown up to become sex workers in Vancouver's slums. Sorry for the mini rant. And, uh, sorry for like, randomly barging in on your el-jay.)

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