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The Toybox

people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation


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children of dune - leto 1
seperis
Okay, so I am not one for dramatic public gestures--er. Except for that thing last summer? And maybe some stuff before that, which totally does not count since I started my resolution last summer. Now I do it under flock, like any sane fanficster.

But a few links:

Communities

fandom_counts

fandompays

Hmm

Look, the thing is, I get the people that are saying that we're all overdramatizing and it's not that big a deal, it's only lj.

No, wait, I said that wrong.

I totally do not get that at all. It *is* that big a deal. Yes, we started in fanzines, and then there was usenet, and then there was mailing lists, and then there was livejournal. Yes, if this fails, of course we'll find something else. There's never a doubt of that.

But that doesn't mean we can't try and fight for what we have now. It doesn't mean we'll win--that we'll get back those ljs we lost, the history and conversations and fiction in them that we may never see again--but I feel like we have to try.

As much as the mailing lists, as usenet, as fanzines, our history is here too. Almost everyone has had a mailing list suddenly vanish, usenet threads deleted, bad mods, and livejournal, if it did nothing else, gave us this; a history we keep to ourselves in our ljs, answerable not to listmods or usenet mods, but to ourselves. And apparently, SixApart.

So you know, labeling us who are upset as hysterical? Feel absolutely free to do so. I've been here since 2001. I met my closet friends here. I found my last two fandoms here. I met svmadelyn and trobadora and amireal here (as examples, I seriously love all my flist to a ridiculous and probably vaguely unhealthy degree). I've invested in the equivalent of internet real estate here, the way I never could in any other forum other than my webpage. I've decorated. Well, isilya decorated for me. But I helped. It's home.

It doesn't mean I can't create another one somewhere else, with new locales and new friends and new ways of organizing fandom. But I'm just not quite ready to give this one up yet.

Seriously. People don't argue and fight and try just because they know they're going to be able to change something; we all know the odds on that one. I'd just rather say I tried and failed.



Quick add

This was just contributed by lydiabell

hxxp://pedoblogtracker.blogspot.com/

It seems to show a list of all ljs deleted. Can anyone verify accuracy? I'll double check the people listed yesterday keeping track and find out.

Also. So. What are the chances we can hit news comment limit by say--*checks clock*--5:00 PM CST? That's 11:00 PM GMT, if I converted that correctly. Just try.


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Yes, if this fails, of course we'll find something else.

The difference, to me, is that the previous changes were natural progressions--things that, for at least a lot of fandom, worked better, or had things they wanted. Fandom (as a collective) "chose" to migrate to mailing lists. Fandom "chose" to go to LJ.

And when fandom "chooses" to go somewhere else, I'll be there. But I don't want to be *forced* there for any other reason than "hey, that's where the fangirls are."

Plus, every movement's fandom made, we kinda gained something. What we've gained here on lj is the journal part. Half of my flist isn't even in the fandom we were in when I added them, but there they are - fascinating, fun people who I want to keep up with. I'm super hesitant to even think of giving this up.

Also, icons are pretty.

I wrote quite a lot about reactions like "get over it" and "caring is wankery" (http://nimnod.livejournal.com/192982.html) so I won't say it again, but - it *is* important. It is *not* hysterical.

The thing is - yes, of course this will not stop fandom. But this is a matter of principle. And history. And community. Home.

And their idiosyncratic definition of "interest" as "something I wholeheartedly support in reality" is utterly, utterly ridiculous. Nothing whatsoever justifies that, and I don't believe for a second that they are actually in legal danger because of listed interests.

Yeah. What really gets me is how ridiculous this "justification" is and that they don't react with any clarification either.

I mean, If it was truly such a huge legal problem that interests are searchable and can be used for criminals finding each other or whatever (and INAL so I have no real clue how bizarre internet law may get), wouldn't it be easier to disable the interest search mechanism as a stopgap measure and stick with deleting journals for actually reported, specific TOS violations, like they apparently did before? I mean, before they didn't have this liability issue when they responded to reports and actually checked the LJs, no?

I don't expect them to be on the cutting edge of electronic rights advocacy, and if they argued that comms with explicit chan were obscene and violate the TOS or something, I wouldn't like it, but I could follow their argument, and understand that they don't want to end up as the test case defending non-con underage Malfoycest as free speech in some court. But this blanket action without checking for actual TOS violations just makes no sense to me, and really, whether it is their legal right to act unreasonable in policing their site or not, I still prefer to give money to web services that act reasonable and in a transparent fashion, especially with making clear beforehand what is and is not allowed on their service.

I mean, how am I supposed to guess that say listing "slavery" as an interest because I like it fic might suddenly get me suspended, because after all it could be me soliciting human traffickers and clearly illegal? It's one thing if web services use their discretion to be on the cautious side and TOS you for something that may be a gray area, but this complete randomness (if they really intend all suspensions to be permanent rather than for some review process), just because they receive complaints from people who are apparently not even aware that "Lolita" is a book, that isn't inspiring confidence.

And following this kind of suspension for an interest without checking through they open themselves up for a ton of grudge complaints and LJ drama at the very least, as soon as people report their personal grudge for listing say "drugs" (along with a community containing some post about where to buy illegal drugs for better credibility) and expect a suspension or something. Not to mention the next random zealous internet group objecting to "obscenity" because they are the "warriors against moral corruption" or something that may report LJs for listing "dirty furry sex" or whatever (regardless of whether the LJ contains actually obscene furry sex content), or the RIAA asking to suspend everyone who lists "mp3 sharing" regardless of whether the LJ contains musig posts and so on.

It's the unwillingness to look at individual cases at all that gets to me, since it's always been their policy before. And as you say, if interest search is such a liability, they could (at least temporarily) disable it.

And yes, indeed - they've just shown just how easily they are blackmailed, and I'm betting people will jump on that and try to milk it for all it's worth. They've left themselves wide open. How come they didn't realise that?

I think-- I think LJ broke the unwritten spirit of the TOS (not sure if that counts for much) because we have seen them enact TOS issues before and they say specifically what they're most likely to do.

Also I'm curious if the interests concept has been fully explained anywhere and if anyone could walk into it, as you said, understanding how this makes them legally liable. IF NOT, as they haven't, I'm not sure if what they did really makes sense.

wouldn't it be easier to disable the interest search mechanism

That's what I suggested (with comment title) in the news post.

Also. So. What are the chances we can hit news comment limit by say--*checks clock*--5:00 PM CST? That's 11:00 PM GMT, if I converted that correctly. Just try.
Excellent, I think. Considering that it's at *hits refresh* page 32 and counting.

It's a wonder how I didn't think about this before. I think only a few did. the truth is that in a way, LJ is a same type of commercial actor as Yahoo Grups, or Fanlib. Before this, they have succesfully maintained an image of not having any power over the user. That has abled the users to freely post whatever they wanted without a fear of the Big Brother. Now? Not so.

And the thing is this: After LJ has been successfully machined to suspend lj's because of outside powers, this same route would be easy to use to, lets say, take down all the accunts containing copyrighted material. And voila, that would be the end of the sroty for fandom in LJ.

I totally do not get that at all. It *is* that big a deal. ...Yes, if this fails, of course we'll find something else. There's never a doubt of that.

Thanks for that. I know the chances of my journal getting hit are slim to none, and this will all boil off soon enough, but that's beside the point.

The point is that LJ *is* home. And it feels like we've been invaded. That's what got to me yesterday - locking down my journal, for me, was the equivalent of shutting myself in the closet with the phone waiting for the bad men to leave.

Which, yeah, sounds overly-dramatic and hysterical, but you know what? I don't care. I'm a stay at home mom who homeschools her special needs child, living a thousand miles away from her friends and family. LJ is how I connect with the world, I don't have a whole lot of other options right now if I want to have a conversation that doesn't involve Pokemon.

Yesterday I stopped feeling safe here, and that hit me really harder than I thought it would. It's nice to know I'm not the only person having a strong reaction to all this, you know?

That's exactly where I am with this. Because they are targeting our communication with each other, our contact, and our community. There are several different areas of my life that I get to discuss and share and allow other people to see online.

In RL, I'm always reminded that we never really know what's going on with people. LJ has that too, of course, but there are so many ways that we *are* able to share the amazing and horrible and tedious and freaky, weird things that we all have in us.

Because I am just brain-fried by all this, can I quote you on my LJ - credited? This part of the post:

I totally do not get that at all. It *is* that big a deal. Yes, we started in fanzines, and then there was usenet, and then there was mailing lists, and then there was livejournal. Yes, if this fails, of course we'll find something else. There's never a doubt of that.

But that doesn't mean we can't try and fight for what we have now. It doesn't mean we'll win--that we'll get back those ljs we lost, the history and conversations and fiction in them that we may never see again--but I feel like we have to try.


I'm happy to link back here. Want to pimp fandom_counts to corners of my flist that might be somehow under a rock at the moment.

Feel free to do so.

I keep watching fandom_counts go up in numbers and smile *so much*.

I'm reccommending to all the authors I know who post on LJ that, if they do decide to leave LJ behind that there is another site out there, Deadjournal.com that has the Exact Same Coding as LJ, but is so little-known that this WoI group doesn't know it exists. I think so. At least, I haven't seen any bru-ha-ha over there because of WoI. They have the same system of friending and communties. Not quite as many bells and whistles as LJ has, but it's at least worth a look in case you want to find out other options.

well, women's protests have often been deemed 'hysteria' - it's a convenient way to marginalize and discount them. That's not to say some of the reaction hasn't been presented in it's usual fannish drama queen manner -- that's the fannish way, man -- but presentation aside, this particular censorship takes a blind swipe at something and manages to cut incidentally to the heart of fannish identity, sharing our fantasies about fictional characters (and occasionally fictionalized versions of real people). People can say oh, it's just fandom or it's just fiction or it's just a tv show or it's just your hobby or they can say it's just your heart. That doesn't lessen my feeling of its importance to *me*.

It doesn't mean I can't create another one somewhere else, with new locales and new friends and new ways of organizing fandom. But I'm just not quite ready to give this one up yet.
Seriously, I like it here. LJ has been my gateway to and as-good-as-only source of fandom.

re: f_counts: 4100 and rising. :))

Huh - just tried to post to LJ News, and got 'database temporarily down', whaddya know. I agree about this place being home - it's not like the new place wouldn't have a master bedroom ensuite plus martini bar, but I'm comfy here!

Word. Exactly word. Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say all day. I commented on the news thread earlier today. Also joining fandom_counts...

Just wanted to say word on this post. I'm sick of the "it's not a big deal, stop whining, stop being hysterical, whatever in my day I had to use 10 secret logins to find my slash" comments. Yeah some people are over the top. Yeah some people aren't going about this the right way. BUT this is more than just "I want my porn out in public" and I'm tired of being treated like it is.

Sure fandom can find another place to go and build up the community again but it's just, the whole way this is going down is putting a bad taste in my mouth.

The only shredlet of hope I'm letting myself feel is that time is going by ... and going by ... and TPTB still haven't said anything. Almost as though they're having a knock-down drag-out fight in there ...

I'm using the Ronon icon because he's pretty. That's why.

And because who doesn't like JM's naked chest?

Sorry, that's right, important things are happening. Can't focus on the naked chest. There's war to be had.

Wow, I love seeing the hard numbers on fandom_counts and fandompays.

Thanks for linking to the new comms. And for the perspective. I like it here, too. While I can move along (and I've backed up my journal), I'd rather not feel that I have to do so.

I went over to news comments and found a gap of exactly one month. There was a comment from4/30/07 and then another comment from today. Today's comment was the last one and the only one to address the deletions and suspensions. Nothing in between,and the comment pages were down to 11. So of course I left my own comment - but one wonders if they think we are just going to go away if they keep deleting us?

I've locked down most of my fic, and I'm considering deleting because of the way this ties in with personal RL risks to my job.

*sigh*

I hate this. The lack of verification or investigation is unconscionable, and really the complete paper tiger that is the Warrior site should not be able to make LJ admins turn their backs on the ethos of their own organizations.

Have been away from my computer and just catching up on the LJ meltdown...

makes me wonder just how far LJ will go to satisfy the ~witch hunters~ as I'm sure that there are those out there who could find even the most general fic offensive...

I would miss this community terribly and would certainly follow my flist wherever their next port of call happened to be... I just hope it doesn't have to leave.

Am also impressed with the climbing numbers!

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