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The Toybox

people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation


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sgareview - sateda - anti-squee, s3e4
children of dune - leto 1
seperis
This does not invalidate my earlier *squee*. I just wanted to separate them out so the happy squee could be all happy on its own. Cause totally loved the ep. Okay, I'm so not justifying myself here. This is Anti-Squee. Or, things that got on my nerves.



Just my short list, to get it out of my system:

1.) Okay, Ronon-Sue got on my nerves. Everyone *everyone* suddenly wants to love and nurture adn rescue him. *Everyone*. Everyone states how much they love and want to have his babies. *Everyone*. Everyone is hellbent on bringing him home. *Everyone*. Even people, perhaps (read: Carson), who do not interact with him. Um. Ever. Even people who don't mention him. Ever. It was weird.

2.) I undestand DH is comedy gold. And I even get the humor that had me on the floor giggling when he got shot in the ass. And I am all for Sheppard touching McKay all he can. For any reason. That does not invalidate my instant, God, not *again* of cheap humor. Followed up with morphine drugging. Yes, it is funny. And it *worked*. But this should not be all the character *is* if you want him to be well-rounded or you know, anywhere near as breathtaking as he was in Trinity and to a lesser extent, Grace Under Pressure.

3.) I just want to make this clear.

Carson. In the jumper. To save Ronon.

Carson and Rodney, arguing over who loves Ronon more. No, seriously. That was freaking *surreal*. That was beyond surreal. That made no *sense*. See one, Ronon-Sue.

Seriously. Can anyone count on more than one hand the number of interactions they've had outside of *simply sitting in the same room*?

Carson and Rodney *fighting over a gun* to see who gets to go down and Save Ronon. What the *fuck* was that? Can Carson even *shoot*? Especially *that gun*? And why, why, why in the name of God are they *doing that*? Funny, yes. Completely OOC, also. See one, Ronon-Sue.

You know, what bothered me about it was that Carson and Rodney *are friends*. So it felt like they were making light/denigrating that relationship in the pursuit of The Wonder of Ronon and How Everyone Loves Him. Seriously, that wasn't necessary. Just no.

4.) The entire "I will kill you if you kill the guy I want to kill" annoyed me so much I kinda wanted to shoot Ronon. Mostly because he goes backward immediately when Evil Guy is shot by the drone and is *totally okay* with it. And it wouldn't have been a problem if he'd spent any of that episode in *other* than manly intense PTSD angst manpain. It was *funny*. Or should have been if it'd been consistent with *anything else* he'd done in that ep.

The thing is--I loved this ep. It had *character*. I mean, all over the place. It had backstory for Ronon. It had Sateda. It had *John talking about his feelings*. Which just about made me fall over dead. It was *interesting*. It was funny. And despite that, it just itches at me that I cannot figure out what on earth was going on in there.

Okay, I feel better.


I had the same problems with the Rodney and Carson scenes, as well as the "humour at McKay's expense" sequences.

I kinda figured out a very twisted way to make the last bit work though (your number 4). I think Ronon got what he needed from everyone: Sheppard didn't shoot first, and when Ronon needed to be rescued, someone who he hadn't admonished not to do so, shot the [Master]Wraith. So in a sort of twisted way, since he was about to be dead (in which case he assured Sheppard that it was okay to kill the guy) he could be grateful to Carson for helping him out, while still glad that Sheppard hadn't betrayed his trust.

Like I said, it's twisty, but for the sake of an episode I mostly liked, I can make it work.

Hee! Okay, I thought you were going to say what my grr with the ep was, but you didn't. Now that I read yours, though, I definitely agree. Mine was that this ep was that Ronon's story was a retread of Cor Ai, back in SG-1's season 1. Except that Teal'c didn't seem like as much of a Mary Sue as Ronon did here.

My big plus for the ep was that the cinematography and effects were gritty and awesome. Now that I read your pluses, I'm reminded that I was kind of struck by the John-Teyla scene. Which was great. But after two and a half years? Shouldn't she kind of know by now? Or had this conversation earlier? But still, cuteness.

*curious* what was your grrr? Now I wanna know.

2.) I undestand DH is comedy gold. And I even get the humor that had me on the floor giggling when he got shot in the ass. And I am all for Sheppard touching McKay all he can. For any reason. That does not invalidate my instant, God, not *again* of cheap humor. Followed up with morphine drugging. Yes, it is funny. And it *worked*. But this should not be all the character *is* if you want him to be well-rounded or you know, anywhere near as breathtaking as he was in Trinity and to a lesser extent, Grace Under Pressure.

This, I totally agree with. If I take Sateda as an independent unit, then I liked the use of Rodney a lot. But taken as a trend from the beginning of S2, then no. Rodney used to be my second favorite character and now he's like my fourth. I have plenty of affection for SGA so fourth is still high, but he took a definite hit. I was watching "Hide and Seek" a few weekends back and I was struck how different Rodney was in S1 than now, even early S1. Trinity was a flashback to S1 Rodney and it was for me his best episode in all of S2. It's annoying and cheap and it's making Rodney increasingly two-dimensional.

Now Rodney is a whiny clown most of the time who complains every time he's asked to do his job and has to be actively pushed into doing it even when his own life is at stake like 90% of the time. This is in part why I don't care for the "all the characters are sooo mean to poor snowflake Rodney" fandom phenom. Because he is often acting like a whiny clown so of course they react to them in that light. I absolutely agree that the writers are completely wasting Rodney's character and the use of him as a non-warrior POV on the team. Turning him into a joke is an easy laugh, but when your characters are your main source of strength, you have to wonder about their long term strategy with cheapening one of the two leads.

I liked Carson and Rodney's earlier conversation about Rodney's commitment to Ronon because it was to me interestingly played in that Carson was completely right but still at the end had no idea what he was talking about. I'd be surprised if Rodney and Ronon ever did have a conversation off mission. There doesn't appear to be much mutual liking between those two. But that was completely beside the point because Rodney and Ronon do have a bond even if it isn't an easy one. So that interaction I liked. The rest did seem to be pushing it a little and I found the humor a little intrusive. Ronon, Teyla and John were having this dramatic moment that kept being intercut with Carson and Rodney's bickering and the lightness there felt out of place to me. The bickering over the gun was just retarded because as Carson said, they had more than one. It was a bit of a buzzah? moment.

Ronon-Sue I didn't really mind though I take your point. I love Ronon so even though I totally agree the whole must save Ronon thing was odd coming from Carson, I was fine with everybody loves Ronon week.

Saved yours for much pre-thinking. Okay.

Now Rodney is a whiny clown most of the time who complains every time he's asked to do his job and has to be actively pushed into doing it even when his own life is at stake like 90% of the time. This is in part why I don't care for the "all the characters are sooo mean to poor snowflake Rodney" fandom phenom. Because he is often acting like a whiny clown so of course they react to them in that light. I absolutely agree that the writers are completely wasting Rodney's character and the use of him as a non-warrior POV on the team. Turning him into a joke is an easy laugh, but when your characters are your main source of strength, you have to wonder about their long term strategy with cheapening one of the two leads.

God yes. Hide and Seek, even Underground, The Defiant One, Trinity, and bits in other eps show what they can actually *do* with him. I love he can play the comedy, but God, they've got to stop making him the joke, or he just gets on my nerves.

The problem I had with the Rodney and Carson wasn't Rodney feeling a bond with his teammate--he *should* at this point, and it never occurred to me he wouldn't go on this mission. This was a Team Thing, and Rodney, hell or high water, goes with the Team. It just read wrong--it felt wrong for the two of them. Carson came off as--competitive in a way over Ronon, whether or not the writers went for that. I tried recasting Carson as, say, Cadman, and it *still* came off that way.

But it wouldn't have been hard to make it less like that and more an honest inquiry. Carson was too--I don't know. They're friends--snarky friends, Rodney's main way of interacting with people he likes, but friends. I can't even say it was one of them doing it--it literally felt like a weird schoolyard fight of two guys over a girl. And I kept thinking I was reading the scene wrong, and I could be, but the interact just felt off.

*g* The Ronon-Sue was annoying, but if the writers are trying to fast-establish closeness betwen the core Atlantis group, it made sense. So if that is the overall idea, I'm all for it. Just throws me a little.

I was thinking a lot of the same things..I did a little addendum to my squee about the episode that included:

1. Exactly how many heart to hearts has Carson had with Ronon.
2. He tells John that if he kills the Wraith, he'll kill him..while Carson does it and he gets a hug???

I loved the episode as well, it's tied or surpasses my love of "The Brotherhood" but somethings did have me scratching my head though.

God, yes. Scratching and *scratching*.

Yes!
No way would Rodney and Carson be fighting over the gun. If it was necessary, Rodney would take the gun and tell Carson to pilot. Or just have him do what he did at the end--shoot the Really Big Space Gun at the bad guy.
(I can see the missing lines:
Rodney: Shoot it! Shoot it with a drone!
Carson: Ahhh! Rodnee, I canna! I'm terrible with them!
Rodney: Carson, you are the only one who can do this. Shoot the damn drone or I be forced to jump out and do something stupid that will cause me to be in your infirmary for days.)

My opinion on Ronon? He's a John Woo character.
Really! His Love and his Friends are Dead by Betrayal. He can accurately shoot two guns while jumping over crates. He can dodge bullets. All we needed were doves to go with the flashbacks, people!



And please tell me they are going back to get as many of the big honkin' grenade-guns as they can carry!

Please God let it be so with those guns. Cause those things *rocked*.

Clearly Ronon had indulged in some of that herb.

...actually, I bet there was lots of love and bonding offscreen during the whole Irresistable thing.

*fanwanks that into a theory*

*grins* As good as any I've heard yet.

But seriously. Ronon-Sue. God.

The whole Carson/Rodney thing felt off to me. When exactly has Carson been on an actual mission with the team? And exactly when did he become an expert on what Ronon considers a friend? Did it even occur to him that probably NO ONE has had an actual discussion with the man, simply becuase he doesn't say a whole lot? We already know that Rodney and Ronon bond over food. Just look at them in Condemned. Also, when I was in the Army, my platoon was my family, but I didn't spend time off work with them, or have long talks with them. Just becuase we didn't have heart-to-hearts didn't mean we weren't close.
The one thing I did like, however, was that, to me at least, I saw a big character development with Rodney. This is the guy who wanted a gurney for a splinter, a guy who walked around in a rubber suit all day to avoid radiation. And there he was, with a valid injury that could have prevented him from going on the mission, and he didn't complain about it, didn't whine to John when he was looking for Ronon. He just did what he had to, and teased John right back about the bad jokes he made. Even in the infirmary, second time, he was very composed. If somone was poking my ass after I got shot, I would be complaining, too!
Carson just seemed rather heartless and mean in this ep, and it didn't at all what I would expect for him. It seems to me he's been affected by what happened the past few episodes, and rather try to deal with it, he's overcomensating. Or something.
I don't know. Loved the episode, hated some of the character points.

Regarding Carson and Rodney in the jumper: The only explanation I have for that would be that Carson is there in the first place for an unknown reason (because he is secretly Ronon's boyfriend? Tehy have a shared passion for [insert hobby here]? Etc.), and very anxious for Ronon. Which leads to him forgetting, or completely ignoring, that Rodney actually has combat experience and knows how to do this, at least much better than Carson himself. This, of course, leads to pissy Rodney because Rodney knows he knows better, and yet Carson just doesn't bend to his will.

And yes, I believe that this will have serious consequences for Rodney's friendship with Carson (or should have, after they ignore issues of characters dealing with genocide, I doubt they'll take the time to actually play this out). Carson tut-tuting over Rodney being a bad patient, Rodney has no problem with. But I think he'll mind not being taken seriously in a combat situation. Unless, of course, Carson being there in the first place actually had a valid personal reason Rodney knows about, which I highly doubt unless it's in the part of the script bible that says =and Ronon and Carson are fucking, but keeping it quiet so as not having to deal with the stupid earth military BS=.

The weird part is, this is the first time *ever* that the slash explanation is the only one I can come up with that *doesn't* make the characters look like they're--well, really *stupid*.

And--the thing is? I don't slash Rodney and Carson. But canonically, Rodney does not interact directly outside his job with anyone *but* Carson. So--it was frustrating to see that strain.

(Deleted comment)
And that's exactly the reason it's so frustrating. Just a couple of things that *grate* becuse they show up so vividly against all the good.

re 3:

I also loved the episode, and also had the same reservations, although not enough to not love the episode. But even before the argument about the gun, that conversation between Rodney and Carson was bugging. Because it made no sense in the context of what we've seen; Rodney HAS spent a lot of time on missions with Ronon, most recently trapped for several hours right next to him, so logically, they had to have had at least a few conversations. While Carson has NEVER gone on missions with Ronon (unless you count herb-dealing under the influence) and has likely had much less opportunity to have a heart-to-heart.

it felt--wrong. I mean, forced-character wrong. There just wasn't a reason for it, other than to show How Everyone Loves Ronon. And that jsut does nto work for me.

(Deleted comment)
God, that *does* explain it.

See I give a pass on the telling John not to kill the Wraith but hugging Carson when he did just because I don't think Ronan expected to get his ass kicked quite so completely.

He expected to at least be in the fight and he wasn't and I couldn't really see him going 'hey guys-changed my mind', but I think he more than appreciated the rescue.

Just based on the few new eps so far, and my own tendency to snap judge, I suspect we're in for a season of being forcefed Carson (and especially Carson and Rodney scenes) because of the McGillion/McKay friendship. I think they're trying to carry the friendship and wacky hijinks of the actors over to the show.

Aaaaand that obviously should have read McGillion/Hewlett. Gah.

huh...yeah, that hadn't occurred to me, but, you definitely make valid points....

my point of anti-squee was that in the flashbacks, the actress that was supposedly Ronon's wife and JM had absolutely no chemistry together. in retrospect, looking at screencaps, they're mostly physically across the room from each other, even if the lines don't seem to call for it. and you can see everyone on LJ deducing that they were married by the lines--the fact that Ronon said "we". It's not obvious from the acting what kind of relationship it was...

Also, she was stupid: I can't relate to a heroine who, on the day your planet's invaded, doesn't know enough to wear PANTS.

1. Well, Caldwell didn't really seem to want to have Ronon's babies...I mostly put it down to everyone lusting after him and John's unhealthy obsession with him (which is pretty canon). Carson did interact with Ronon in Runner, which may be why he's hellbent on helping him in this episode, since there's all the parallels and whatnot to Runner.

3. I'm a bit confused as to why, suddenly, Rodney can't shoot? In Aurora (that was the ep with the wraith fight, right?) he shot pretty much perfectly. And Carson...I'd figure he couldn't shoot at all, especially because he hates using the chair for drones, which is probably easier than using a gun.

4. My theory on this one was that it's because John is a: Ronon's commanding officer, b: another 'warrior,' and c: part of Ronon's team. Carson is none of those things, he's not even a fighter in the loosest sense of the word, and therefore it's not a sign that he didn't think Ronon could handle the fight or thought he was better than Ronon, or whatever else Ronon's weird values could come up with, but that it was just some crazy civilian trying to protect a person they work with. At least, that's how I could justify it to myself.


Great points ^.^

*g* The only person not drooling to save Ronon was the guy set up to be the enemy. See, it made sense that John would go after him--yes, total unhealthy supercrush from hell there. Teyla and Rodney, yes, too, definitely. And Elizabeth in her latest mood seems to be All About Her People, and I can groove with that. But Carson's presence threw it way off to me.