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The Toybox

people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation

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buffy buffy buffy!
children of dune - leto 1
Finally finsihed season seven of BtVS. nonchop also sent me season one and four of BtVS, so I now am two seasons short of a complete set. Thsi is like all you can eat cookie dough without the accompanying post-eating nausea.


I loved the Potentials becoming Slayers. The drama was pretty. Buffy getting stabbed and getting up--y'all, I am all about teh big symbolic gesture here, and I cry at the drop of a scythe, you know? The whole symbol of united women/slayers and the tossing of the Cool Scythe of Doom was fabulous. Everything was pretty. My inner Buffy/Angel shipper did a dance. My more outer Spike/Buffy shipper did a second dance. Pretty much my idea is a happy Angel/Spike/Buffy threesome while they fight demon crime. Or just porn their angsty little hearts out.

But. And there's always a but.

What. The. Hell. Was that necklace? It felt rushed and pushed into the plotline for the express purpose of killing off Spike for his glorious future as a ghost and later inmate of AtS. And not done well, either. And it took away from the rest, in a way. If it had been the new Slayers alone and Spike et al fighting and winning, then I would have watched it happily and not regretted a thing. But the necklace annoyed me so much. It was--deuxy. For this show, it was about Buffy, and being a Slayer, and the Potentials finding their Potential, so to speak, and then, boom, The Magical Necklace of Fixiness comes in and grrrr. The potentials werne't needed. Apparently, nothign was needed but The Magical Necklace and *grrrr*. Can I edit that out somehow?

Or am I missing something huge? Cause aside from that, I loved. But I am a wishlist girl, and my wishlist would have included also--

More of the Willow-Xander-Buffy-Giles bond working here. Because dammit, that was what the show was *built* on. I don't have to like them all to love them together adn what they can do together when sufficiently motivated. One of my favorite moments of all time in BtVS is the death of Adam, in which the four do their Becoming One thing. Plus, Spike saying about the Beatles, in The Yoko Factor, that they could ahve ruled the world, which could have just as easily been applied to Buffy et al. Was Joss having a bad day or something with the last four eps? I like the four of them together. It was powerful, and it was magical, and it was the exact reason I couldn't get into Angel as much as I wanted. That friendship, that was so much a part of them that it had a life of its own, an existence that was almost palpable. Things pulled them apart, but they weren't ever really apart. The Potentials were a group that also relied on that inner bond of friendship, and then. Grrr. I need to watch the death of Adam again. That always cheers me up.

Still hate Andrew. Hate that Anya died. Anya was worth a thousand Andrews. I felt like Anya had a journey thing going on there, which made her interesting to watch above and beyond the snark. Andrew was, to me, cannon fodder. Very annoying cannon fodder, with mostly useless moments. I have no idea how he was contributing to the season, other than quasi-comic-relief, but me and my ff button will bond deeply when I rewatch season seven while he is onscreen.

Season Four

I like Riley more this time around, just having viewed the last three eps. Adam is a really silly villian. He just is. I really don't care at all. I could take him seriously as long as I watched, which is all I really want. He scared me, like all things that seem human (in the sense of having a conscience or having empathy and then showing they really don't) and then really aren't do. I still dislike Forrest, but again, my nation is Buffy, so all that hate her are mine enemies. But Riley--I no longer hate him for being so annoying, because he really *did* love Buffy, and so. He gets back into my good graces. I didn't notice the first time around, too consumed with wishing Angel was back, or that Spike would fall for her and he did, later, which is Of the Good.


Loving Spike isn't a choice for me. He loved Buffy, and he did it before he had a soul, and then he went and *got* aoul and started being insane. Insane!Spike is very, very hot. Leave me alone. Insane!Lex turns me on just as much. Then he got weird and--weird. I think he was confused about a soul. You don't *have* to be good with a soul, which you'd think he'd have figured out after six seasons of watching the show and hanging around Willow during her dark roots phase; it's just an *option*.

I'm still pissed, however, at Spike's little speech to Robin about Robin's mother. Robin, you have issues. I mean, I get that, and I don't like you (see above, hurt Buffy? Me angry), but other than that, you are severely hot and give a good one-liner. Your mommy was a single woman who had a job. Spike, that does not mean that Robin's mommy did not love him. JOSS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ROBIN'S MOMMY DID NOT LOVE HIM. Okay? She carried him nine months, and was a Slayer, gave birth to him as a single woman in teh seventies, not exactly the best time period for it, and was a Slayer, and then raised him, ALONE AND SHE COULD DO THAT AND STILL BE A SLAYER. Just like many mommies are doctors, lawyers, teachers, and prime ministers and are still mommies. Like MEN CAN BE ALL OF THOSE THINGS AND STILL BE DADDIES. Okay? What have we learned from this? The mission was important. So was her son. You can save the world and still deeply love your son and care for him. People do it all the time.

I'm a single woman with a son. If Joss didn't mean for that message to be *really* irritating, then really, he's just stupid.

Also, how the hell old was she when she had Robin? That would mean Buffy isn't the oldest Slayer ever, unless Robin's Mother got knocked up around her sixteenth birthday or so. Possible, yes, but jsut curious if canon covers this. Also interesting there is little to no mention of Robin's father, which is refreshing since most shows tend to linger on the missing-father thing ad nauseum and I almost forgive Joss for the bit above for that.

Um, yeah. Let me get back on track.

I love Spike. I love when he refound his dark side, modified it to ebon-gray, and plugged away at being dangerous *and* a relatively in the light kind of guy. Evil on its own does very little for me--hence my lack of real love for Spike before he fell for Buffy. Evil with that chance to go brilliant like a supernova--that's of the hot. And Spike fulfills that for me, and more. Unlike Angel, every bit of it was a deliberate choice. Not that I don't love Angel, except when he goes all moody and boring. It's just mostly, I want to get him drunk and watch him act like a dork, because Angel being a jealous dork is my favorite thing ever.

See? Ideally, post Angel, however the *hell* they are supposed to get out of that, and Joss, you annoyed me a lot with that ending, even if the rest of the ep was kick-ass, is all of them somewhere in Peru, having a lot of post-apocalyptical sex with all manner of abandon. I don't know why Peru. It just sounds nice.

elke_tanzer has a really *really* fun post here on the Slayer lineage. It's so fun to run across these on LJ. I never, ever, ever went into the boards after my first and only experience just looking at them, so all of this debate and thought is totally brand new and so cool. I'm happy. I'm watching season one, season finale Buffy next. I remember whimpering with her over her pretty dress and her upcoming death the first time around.

*happy sigh*

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I don't know why Peru. It just sounds nice.

Why, so that Jim and Blair can get in on the action, of course! *w*

*snickers* As good a reason as any. Plus, rainforest sex.

I love "Prophecy Girl." Love the whole speech and how Buffy breaks down. I have to give SMG major props for how she cries. Maybe she learned it over in Soap Opera land but she starts crying and I start crying. It's not all one fake tear crying, it's all red nose, raccoon eyes crying devastation. *Wonders if can make time to watch some BTVS. Wonders where BTVS tapes are*

Yes. Oh yes. That was fabulously real, and it *hurt*. I cried along with her. *sighs*

Activating the Potentials was, like, Best Plot Twist Evah, but I still call it the "deus axe machina." Mostly because I can't resist a good bad pun.

*snickers* I loved it. It was just--wow. So *cool*. *bounces*

And yes, that's a *great* pun. *grins*

Ohohoh, and that icon that someone made? I can't recall who but you've probably seen it, "Now we are all Chosen."

Still. Makes. Me. Cry.

I wept at the clips of the potentials getting their powers, especially the girl playing softball. It was a wonderful girl-power moment, and, I think, symbolic of the potential in every little girl.

Exactly! *nods* I was tearing up adn wiping at my eyes the whole time, all through Buffy's speech. That was just *great*.

You can save the world and still deeply love your son and care for him. People do it all the time.
True, of course. In the end though, she left him. Well. Slayers die young, and she didn't choose to abdicate that responsibility to raise him. Buffy didn't quit to take care of Dawn either. For "moments that deserve more exploration", let's talk about Dawn showing up with slashed bloody hands saying that she doesn't exist.

I still can't think about Buffy/Angel without getting a little teary. I saw the early eps when I was a teenager, and their love is so intensely angsty and satisfying.
I totally cheered (either mentally or out loud) when Buffy stood back up after being stabbed. That ep was so bittersweet to me. On one hand, it was a good ending, cookie dough metaphors and all. It wasn't predictable for me, and I was happy about that.
I did like the part where Willow does her spell and was like "that was nifty". I was like YES! That's my Willow! On the other, Buffy was my age, graduated the year I did. It was the end of our adolescence.

I sometimes wonder about how Buffy saw Angel at the end of the series, because like her, I grew up over the course of the show and now see the relationship in a different light. I both sympathize more and less with Angel deciding to persue a romantic relationship with Buffy. Yes, he was older and knew better, on a level that I understand much more now, but I also now know that being an adult doesn't mean complete control of all emotion. Heh. Not even Spock had that, especially when it came to romantic love.

Heh. They will totally find a way around it. If Spike can get a soul that doesn't cabob with sex, then Angel can manage it. Maybe sex alone these days wouldn't be enough to growl him out anyway.

*happy place*

Apparently, nothign was needed but The Magical Necklace and *grrrr*. Can I edit that out somehow?

I've been re-watching BtVS (my brother sent me all seven seasons. So far, it's taken about three weeks, and we're half-way through S7) and picking up on things. I think you needed the Necklace to be important (and from vague memory, it was mentioned more on AtS, wasn't it, before Angel came down with it?) for it to work. That is why the First tried to get both Angel and Spike on it's side, that's why it was happy to try to convince both vamps-with-souls to kill themselves. Rewatching the season, I thought it was a great link to the S3 eps, it explains that the vamp-with-a-soul who wears the Magic Necklace is the big weapon against the first. Of course, without the Slayers and the Potentials, Spike wouldn't have lived long enough to activate the Necklace, so it's not as if he could have defeated the First on his own. It was a whole teamwork thing.

I felt like Anya had a journey thing going on there, which made her interesting to watch above and beyond the snark. Andrew[...] I have no idea how he was contributing to the season, other than quasi-comic-relief...

Personally, I still love Andrew. I *need* the comic relief in BtVS. I loved the way early seasons made me laugh. And as much as I like the realism that these people couldn't deal with death and destruction for years without losing some of that naive, irrelevant humour, it's too dark without the laughs. I needed Andrew to make me giggle, to make it less Doom'n'Gloom, and more People Fighting The Big Bad.

Plus, if Spike gets forgiven for killing *how* many people under the First's influence, I think Andrew deserves a little forgiveness for killing one person.

I don't know. I like the humaness, the frailty of Andrew. I like the fact that he was Good or Evil, but just human, and trying, and weak. Just someone who used stories to interpret his world, who didn't look too closely because he was scared of the truth, who put his faith in the wrong people (and I forgave Faith for that) and trusted someone else to tell him where to go.

As for Anya, it seemed a surprise the first time I saw it, but this time I noticed D'Hoffryn at the start of S7, when he killed Hallee and let Anya go. He mentions that she'll die, the whole "from beneath you it devours", so it makes more sense for him to let her live -- knowing that when she does die, she'll have been accepted by her friends again, and it'll cause more pain for everyone.

I still dislike Forrest

You know who I really like? Graham, Riley's other military buddy. There's something about the whole optimistic, supporting-Riley-going-for-Buffy thing that I find adorable.

Unlike Angel, every bit of it was a deliberate choice.

Eh. I wasn't convinced when I first watched the series, I'm not convinced now. I don't buy Spike's whole "I went off to get a soul for you" line. He didn't. He specifically asked for the chip to be removed, and then followed that up with the vagueness of "I want to be restored to what I was". I think it's crap that he went off to get a soul: I think he went to get the chip out to come back and kill Buffy (and maybe turn her, which would be both chilling and... kinda cool).

I think that Spike did what Spike does best -- talked himself up. Used whatever happened to make himself sound bigger and braver and stronger than he is (not that he isn't, he just isn't oh-so-planned-and-smart guy. He's let's-get-to-the-action guy, because that's more fun), because when he claims he went off to fight for a soul, there's no one who can disclaim it.

I think the soul was forced on him, the same way it was forced on Angel, through unforeseen consequences of his actions. I'll give Spike points for having a personality strong enough to survive regardless of the soul (which Angel doesn't have. As he's said before, he's a weak man, always has been), but I think the whole "Spike's better than Angel because he went off and got his soul" argument that fans come up with a load of hooey.

And, if I'm sounding a little argumentative, I apologise. It's just *very* hot here today, and I think it's making me a little more reactive than usual.

I think it's crap that he went off to get a soul

The discussion on various boards about that has been.. explosive. I think the final consensus was that Joss told JM to play it as if Spike was asking for chip-removal, but planned/knew all along that he was working for the return of his soul. Later, in interviews, Joss and others have repeatedly stated that Spike went through the trials and all for a soul. Specifically for the soul.

Boards: What? Wait - why are you telling us this? Shouldn't we be seeing this in the show? Why did he sound like he was getting the chip out, then? Hey, do interviews count as canon? We can ignore what he just said, right, 'cause that's stupid?
Other Boards: It isn't stupid! He said it, so it's true. Spike wanted to get his soul, and he did, and JM acted like that to make it really suspenseful so we wouldn't expect the soul.
Boards: But that's stupid.
Other Boards: You're stupid!

And such. It also ties into the giant. ass. authorial intent/interpretation debate that's been wandering around lately.

AllAboutSpike.com has a whole essay about it here, which includes quotes from the various writers insisting that, yes, Spike was trying to get a soul. (Points which are invalidated if one votes on the 'interpretation' side of the authorial intent/viewer interpretation debate.) Later dialogue has also been, well, very did-it-to-get-a-soul ish.

*headtilt* Hope it's okay if I, er, butt in. But. It's interesting! And there are.. you know, things. And such. If I shouldn't be here, kick me.

*headtilt* Hope it's okay if I, er, butt in.

*laughs* Okay, yes, maybe I came down on the cranky side of fan-opinion. Somehow, I'm not surprised that fans got worked up over it, and really... hmmm... I don't think Joss played it quite ambiguous enough for that to work. If Spike hadn't specifically mentioned getting the chip out (which he did, although I'll rewatch the eps to make certain), I'd have bought Joss's points without problem.

But, hmmm. Interesting.

Hi. I've watched S6 lots of times and on repeat viewings, that Spike goes off to get a soul fits in and makes sense. There's no way he would have wanted to get the chip out so he could kill Buffy. He loves Buffy. He's mortified that he tried to rape her. As far as he's concerned it's the worst thing he's ever done and the only thing he can do to make amends is to get himself souled up. Before leaving, he does whine about the chip, saying that everything changed when he got it, and that is, in fact, totally true, but that doesn't mean he wants rid of it. Spike's a brave, romantic fool and it's totally in character for him to nearly get himself killed for the woman he loves. Lucky Buffy. :)

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