The Toybox

people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation


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*sighs* it's my own fault for reading comments
children of dune - leto 1
seperis
Pentagon begins tackling "don't ask, don't tell"

From comments:
I wonder why there is no mention of a heterosexuals right to privacy in this discussion. You parents and you young people who are considering the military might want to consider that the military, the president and the liberals in congress have no regard for your right to privacy.

In the military it is not uncommon for many persons to be in a communal shower at the same time. It is not uncommon for service members to undress and dress in barracks in front of many people.

I don’t have a daughter, but if I did I would not want her to undress in front of men who have a sexual interest in her. I feel the same way about my son. Write your senators and your state rep about this issue and protect our soldier’s, marine’s, airmen’s and sailor’s right privacy and not to be leered at.

Gay’s in the military is not a good idea. Unless you taxpayers are willing to spend the money to build separate barracks, bathrooms, showers, etc.


Notes:

I'm going to simplify this. I think we're running into a disconnect between Repressed Fantasies 101 and The Real World or Theory versus Practice.

Dear People,

Please stop referring to Everything I Know About Them Homosekshuals I Learned From Porn I Saw on the Internet as a medium of real life experience. I am not denying there might be or could be sexual shenanigans in communal showers somewhere in the world, because the world is large and well, there are sexual shenanigans everywhere. But let's put this on the table; communal showers aren't practically sexy. Just bear with me--you've been calithenicing, running, jumping, sweating, shooting things, and trying not to wonder why you thought this was a good life plan for eighteen hours, which culminates in a tile room that smells like disinfectant, socks, and a mix of many kinds of sweat and probably mildew, and likely dead rats. I'm going to say, and I say this as someone with a healthy libido, should I be in a shower with twenty hot guys, which in theory is OMG YES, in practice, I'll shiv their asses for soap, okay? Fuck sex, I want that sand out of my underwear and then I want dinner and sleep and contemplate how I got to this point in my life. It's the military. They're a little busy with trying not to die in physical training or you know, shooting things.

There is a reason human beings, as a rule, do not go on dates still wet wearing towels and in general, we don't say "Hey, I like you. Wanna get some coffee and a communal shower?". Only in porn is anyone attractive while desperately scrubbing off mud and trying to balance on one foot to get those hard to reach places. And frankly, having seen some of that porn? Not so much, no.

Jesus.

So. Just to reiterate--not that it couldn't happen, but honestly, you're also not that hot. Especially covered in day old sweat and dirt. Thank you. Stop watching bad porn. Hell, stop watching porn. Obviously it's fucking with your fantasy to reality filter.

Short version: they're really going to repeal it? Wow. So something just might actually go right. I'm not sure how to handle news that is not life-endingly bad. This feels like--maybe hope? Don't quote me on that.
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but honestly, you're also not that hot

*snort* Yep. That.

Just. You know, seriously. The people who tend to worry about this most are probably the least likely to be objects of leering, you know?

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Thank you! Awesome link.

Oh my God, there are already gay people in the military, for starters! Also, in my country, you can be openly gay in the military, and have been allowed to be for quite some time, and yet the first soldier came out *last* month, so (a) clearly gay people are still mostly hiding, so they won't be ogling anyone cos they have more self-peservation instincts and (b) there have been no reported sexual issues in the UK military where gay people were coming on to straight people or in any way intimidating them (the other way around, however...)

Jesus, there's nothing like the combination of gay and military to make people go crazy!

Oh my God, there are already gay people in the military, for starters!

oh, your earth logic! So cute! We don't do that in America. We're not into "reality" and whatnot.

The rest--yeah. Speak it. gah.

I think this whole repeal dialog is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, unfortunately.

What I find frustrating is that it seems like those opposed to homosexuals being allowed to serve openly seem to always equate same-sex gender preference with being some sort of pervert or potential sexual attacker. It's like they think our military has such a squeaky clean record when it comes to heterosexual sexual assault and perversion. ::rolls eyes::


I want to say it's straight-male projection with the assumption that nudity is a form of consent for sexual activity, as they try to project what a group of men would do with a naked woman present (naked == asking for it). That's when I'm feeling cynical.

I love you so much. And I'm cracking up a LOT.

Also, us homosexual types? We've been undressing and showering and so forth communally with the same sex..y'know. All our *lives*. The whole forbidden thrill of being somewhere or seeing something you don't see *all the time* just isn't there. It's like nudist colonies. Yes individual people may be attracted to each other while naked, but as a rule everyone's not running around going "I SAW YOUR NAKED PARTS, I MUST JUMP YOU NOW".

Edited at 2010-02-02 09:20 pm (UTC)

God, this. I mean, let's face it, no one has super pheremones. No one is on and up for it twenty four seven. And God knows, showers are not going to show your best side.

The whole forbidden thrill of being somewhere or seeing something you don't see *all the time* just isn't there. It's like nudist colonies. Yes individual people may be attracted to each other while naked, but as a rule everyone's not running around going "I SAW YOUR NAKED PARTS, I MUST JUMP YOU NOW".

THIS. GOD THIS.

Can we blame porn for the rest of the fantasy-to-reality filter issues some people seem to be having?

*faceplant* I don't even know how to fit that into a worldview without dropping acid.

It's like they never take showers in groups. *shudders*

Have to laugh. Why would they think it would be hot to have sex in a communal shower when you're hot, sweaty and dirty? They really need to stop watching bad porn.

I mean, I will kill for hot water at that point, not so much caring about anyone's nakedness.

Ah, reading your post has been ... a cathartic experience. As someone with an ex-Navy captain father who thinks neither homosexuals nor women should be on submarines, let alone on surface ships, the all-too familiar brand of surreal logic used by the comments is something that really riles me up, and you expressed perfectly why.

It's very--something with that. *eyes logic* *sends hugs*

The boything does communal showers in a gym in the middle of San Francisco - so far he's remained unmolested by the OMGgays!

(He did promise me pictures if that ever changed ;)

I have been in enough communal showers to seriously boggle at the idea of sex in them, because seriously, it's rare than any location can make you feel less sexy. And also, the smell. eww.

God, idiocy on so many levels. One, everything you said. Two, the fucked up things soldiers already do to one another as various forms of hazing which are socially accepted as it is are so much worse than the alleged ogling that this commenter is so afraid of. Three, not that it is in any way a solution, but if building separate barracks and showers were the solution? Then hell yeah, taxpayers should pay for it. They used to say that about combat women soldiers too (in my country's military), that it's that much more expensive, and guess what, THEY BUILT THEM ANYWAY. Just... every single part of this comment's argument is stupid, gah.

Although I'm not sure this comment is as stupid as the idea of DADT itself. Which is to say, DADT is really, really stupid, and thank god something is finally happening about it. My country's had gays serve openly in the military for 15 years, and as far as I know neither the army nor army morale have disintegrated yet.

*Crosses fingers* We're getting there. God.

Your straight privilege is showing...

yarnaddict

2010-02-02 09:50 pm (UTC)

Wow.

Wooooow.

I quite like the comment posted wrt John McCain's opinion - would he have cared if the guy who rescued him from a POW camp was openly gay?

People who think that all gay men are just looking for an available ass to fuck: LIFERS are telling you that there's no problem with queers serving openly. THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JCoS is telling you that there's no problem with queers serving openly. I THINK THEY KNOW BETTER THAN YOU DO.

We fags have been willing to fight and die for our country for a looooooong long time. It's sad that you think we're not good enough to defend freedom like /you/ are.

(Also? Separate barracks and showers? Huh. You mean like those separate drinking fountains 50 years ago?)

Re: Your straight privilege is showing...

seperis

2010-02-02 09:53 pm (UTC)

People who think that all gay men are just looking for an available ass to fuck: LIFERS are telling you that there's no problem with queers serving openly. THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JCoS is telling you that there's no problem with queers serving openly. I THINK THEY KNOW BETTER THAN YOU DO.

This. And not unclearly either, but specifically.

(Also? Separate barracks and showers? Huh. You mean like those separate drinking fountains 50 years ago?)

I'm pretty sure some of the people who espouse this would be just as happy to bring back fifty years ago as well.

The shower issue: straight men worrying that gay men will treat them like they treat women.

Also I'm not really sure what they think is going to happen? Someone's suddenly going to redecorate the tanks? I'm 99% sure most gay men when allowed to serve openly won't do more than be allowed to not have to pretend to have a girlfriend back home. And for a while, I doubt even that much.

Can I just say that their inability to make a word plural correctly takes my opinion of their intelligence into negative numbers even before I start in on the idiocy contained in that comment.

Oh my fucking god(s). Seriously? I mean, yeah, I should have expected as much from the close-minded fundies who are afraid someone looking at someone else of the same gender and commenting, “Hey, nice sweater,” are secretly trying to get their hands up that sweater and down the pants of whoever is wearing it, but please.

Think of all the poor innocent men and women who, unlike most of those people writing in, have actual real world experience and have been working side by side with gays and lesbians with hardly a word said about it for years because they, oh, I don’t know, are more concerned about doing their damned jobs and/or not being killed in a 1,001 horrific ways than what someone standing next to them naked thinks about their body.

OMG, what about homosexuals sleeping right next to heterosexuals! The humanity! OMG, what about the straight men and women sleeping next to each other because of size and rooming constraints! The humanity!

One would think that the psych profiles that prevent straight men and women from doing untoward things with other straight men and women might actually work to weed out the stray gay who thinks their drill instructor has a nice ass and wants to do something with/about it.

Sorry. Rambly. Long day. Suffice it to say, overreactors are overreacting and can GTF over themselves. That, and, on a more positive note, it's about damned time.

If what that person wrote were to be true, it also would be already happening, seeing as how it's not talking about being gay that suddenly starts up all those unmet needs for shower-ogling

though honestly, if I couldn't get up the energy to ogle fellow soccer girls in the showers after a hard two hours of practice, I doubt military people will, seeing as, like, 18 hour days of WAR

Out and out repeal is looking less likely than "we'll commission a study and get back to you in three years or so" as if this stuff hasn't already been studied and studied and studied.

http://www.rand.org/news/press/2009/11/09/

As Germany has communal showers in ALL swimming pools and saunas and gyms (though there is sometimes a cabin for shameful people) the idea that communal showers should be a sexy place is very funny to me...
I mean, I have spent years of my life growing up going swimming twice a week and changing in communal changing rooms and using communal showers (lets not talk about the pre-puberty times where we left out towels in out lockers and and walked OMGNAKED down the hall (where MENZ!!! could see us, though usually there was nobody there) and I was sometimes a little uncomfortable during early puberty, but not because I feared anybody would molest me. Now lesbians have a better rep in that regard, but still...

Also, I have been to saunas at several points in my life and while there might be some hot people around, the idea that being surrounded by mostly older people with not-ideally shaped bodies who are also sweating a lot all while being really hot (there's a reason you can only stay in there for about 15 minutes people! this means you'll not want to so anything strenouus inside this climate) and sweating yourself would give anybody the urge to jump people amazes me! (Now they did stop hading out bankets for the resting areas because things happened late some evenings, but that was mostly couples who came as couples, nobody tried crawling into anybodies blanket because they couldn't help themselves.)

Also, when I was 18 or so I spent some time at a small dojo where we as a group knew each other and there was only one shower room and normally this meant girls first and they say when it's all clear, but as we were all old enough we usually just showered together (after asking every time if everybody was ok with it) YES BOYS AND GIRLS!!! and I think if anybody had taken to staring it would have been mockable and not sexy.

Which brings me to my point: In communal showers THERE ARE PEOPLE AROUND YOU. SOMEBODY COULD COME IN AT ANY TIME. While this may appeal to some with strong exibitionist tendecies, under normal circumstances this is not at all condictive to even LOOKING at other people for any length of time, let alone initiating any kind of sexual actibity...

Also: I'm totally with you that I HATE the idea of nekedness (especially in women, as seen by men) somehow implies consent. Because it really really doesn't.

I say this as someone with a healthy libido, should I be in a shower with twenty hot guys, which in theory is OMG YES, in practice, I'll shiv their asses for soap, okay? Fuck sex, I want that sand out of my underwear and then I want dinner and sleep and contemplate how I got to this point in my life.

*LOVES YOU FOREVER* See, showers are my big example of "reality does not work like porn". In fiction, sharing a shower is hot and romantic. In real life, it's all about getting the soap and the damn hot water and trying not to elbow each other and remembering that next time someone suggests sharing a shower in a sexy way, the correct answer is "No way on God's green earth!".

Wow. Speaking as someone who's living in Smallville, KS (and not in the sexy Clark Kent way, in the infuriating Homophobia Central way) there are WAY too people who make stupidity a lifestyle choice. Or does the fact that Don't Ask, Don't Tell =/= Don't Join *completely* escape their notice?

I'll be in my room, trying not to break things.

As a female who served in the Army, and yes, had to strip in front of guys and share tents with them and everything else, really, it's no big deal.

I worked with lesbians, I worked with gays, and honestly? No one cares. It's the brass and the civilians that have a problem, not the soldiers.

When you practically live in the other person's pocket, it's like living with siblings. You squabble, you tease, you get icky socks thrown at your head when you snore. I really doubt any of that will change just because they know you're gay.

And by the way, everything in the Army comes down to sex. From straight, gay, and in between, if there's an innuendo to be found, be certain that it will be.

Did these people never go to jr/sr high school? And have PE at school? The showers weren't communal at my school(s), but the locker rooms were. Statistically speaking, one out of ten of their classmates was gay.

And hell, for the guys -- have they never used the urinals in the restroom??

*nods*

There is nothing sexy about wanting to get all the hot water you can and to GET CLEAN RIGHT NOW. If someone were to interfere in any way in that process? I would not find violence out of order.

I agree with this. I can't seem to wrap my head around that kind of thinking and furthermore the idea that all gay people are attracted to every man they ever see. I don't think that point needs to be elaborated further, but I find it strange that heterosexuals are considered capable of having discerning tastes yet homosexuals are not. *sigh*

Also, I completely love that your letter appears to have been signed by Jesus. Maybe I've lost my mind and just made that up but I love it.

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