The Toybox

people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation


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star trek reboot: intial thoughts and randomness
children of dune - leto 1
seperis
You know, any review I do at this point is kind of the equivalent of guh, yes, this, guh. As one does when one falls on top of awesome and just grovels in it.

Thsi is written in one fell swoop. I know I missed a ton of stuff, but you know, I can totally meta on this for weeks.

Most of this is subject to change. In about a week, after I've read more, I'll probably have some caveats.



Kelvin

The timeline changes by the Kelvin that reverberate through the timeline alone are breathtaking, because I do think, after watching and reading teh novelization, that this is something the writers actually thought about hard before pursuing. It's not just the people are different; you can trace a lot of the differences in personality that occurred.

There's also an indecent amount of parallelism: Spock's mother, Kirk's dad; Spock and Kirk's arguments; the change in upbringing that made Spock repress instead of controlling his emotions and anger expressed in violence while Kirk's upbringing had him searching out ways to express his anger in violence; the fact that both men go for the throat in a fight and do not pussyfoot around it.





The Boring Preface: Timespace

Okay, so I follow two schools of general time-travel thought:

a.) a universe cannot be destroyed or altered [see c.], but it can be forked. In terms of what little physics I get (and years of sci-fi fandoms) it makes sense if Time comes in with a built-in failsafe to avoid destroying itself.

b.) timestreams try to correct themselves in general to match their parent as closely as possible. I submit TNG for evaluation in an Enterprise that was exactly the same crew complement and all after the time-disturbance that sent the Federation to war with the Klingons. For that matter, checking out any of the canon AUs and there's a suspicious amount of similarity when there shouldn't be by any normal stretch of the imagination.

[a.) You can also blame Dr. Who for this one, as the Timelords were once protectors of time, to avoid getting paradoxes and snafus occurring regularly. I've brooded on for a while--Tasha Yar was like, a huge deal for me in sci-fi, because those eps were just plain cool. Dr. Who finally gave it the right voice; destiny is another word for Time trying to correct itself toward its parent universe.]

[b.) This may or may not count timespace changes that were natural to the universe, but I'd have to go and re-read a lot to get the specifics of that down; sometimes, things were supposed to happen in a universe and required time travel to make them happen--see Voyager season Seven and goddamn Seven of Nine.]

[c.) It probably helps to think of timespace as not necessarily sentient, but has a script it wants to follow and dislikes having to switch things up. Like growing crystals, the crystals have a pattern and they do not like being fucked with.]

This gives several possibilities on why, no matter the universe, there are constants that have to occur. It was described once, somewhere, that an alteration in timespace is like throwing a rock into a pool; the big changes occur at impact, forward and backward, with the ripples becoming smaller and smaller until until they reach a rippleless state that will match the parent universe. Sure, that could actually end up being the practical end of the universe, but you know, they still match at the end. Kelvin was hit by the rock. That's the big change that reset the universe. And it changed things going forward (and potentially, backward as well. You see how this really works to explain what can't be explained by the destruction of the Kelvin).

So. In a universe where Timespace has method to madness, a lot of Trek makes an odd amount of sense.

Right. Now the movie.





The destrution of the Kelvin--which was basically Nero throwing a pointless temper tantrum that would later come and bite him in the ass--lead to the birth of Kirk in space, which to point out, unless I'm missing some deeply buried canon, should not have even been possible in Prime Universe, as from what I can tell, she was in labour before the Narada showed up and I don't see them zooming back just to make sure Jimmy was born on terra firma. Hence my thought on time change like a rock rippling forward and backward.

That said, that was an awesome space battle.

Parallelism

Spock and Kirk, interestingly, get on a parallel track they didn't have in Prime Universe; Spock and his temper have a stronger bonding experience due to (speculative) Vulcan xenophobia getting a kick in the ass at the appearance of Romulans thirty years too early and probably only a few years after his birth. Instead of just being a hybrid with a (lesser) human mother, he's a hybrid who is the son of a traitor to racial purity. That's two very, very different mindsets. It's kind of the difference between being British circa teh nineteenth century with the noble savage nonsense and the Ku Klux Klan [alter deed in light of Vulcan's pacificm; the lynchings are all verbal]. Spock was written off as not Vulcan enough--the entire scene in the Vulcan Science Academy was a long and torturous way for Vulcans to remind Spock he's not accepted for himself, but as a consolation prize, he can pretend in the Academy on the strength of being Sarek's--a Vulcan--son.

Spock may have some authority issues.

Kirk without his birth father, but more importantly, left in the care of his stepfather [the novel has some interesting bits referring to how much Kirk's stepfather sucked] and without his mother's presence [in space, from what I gather], is left to his own devices to work out what he's supposed to do with his life. So you know, connects with his inner rage at being abandoned pretty much, which no teenage boy can do well. Kirk's rebellion is against those who wrote him off [his father's death, mother's abandonment, his stepfather being very stereotypically steppy]. Even Pike's acceptance isn't acceptance of James Kirk--it's for George Kirk's son.

Kirk may have some authority issues.

Fast forward three years, this first meeting could not go well.

Kobayahsi Maru

Two things on that: I'm surprised they went the academic dishonesty route on this one, sincerely. Kirk had taken the test twice before already, so it wasn't quite the same as going in cheating the first time on a test they were all well aware could not be passed. I do think Spock had a tantrum and pushed to turn it into an academic issue instead of at best vandalism issue and I think Kirk hit it on the head that Spock was Vulcanly pissed that a.) someone hacked the test at all and b.) that they did it well enough that it wasn't caught until after it was run.

And I think Spock brought up Kirk's father in a deliberate attempt to throw Kirk off enough a dispassionate argument and turn it from a judgment on Kirk's point that the test was in itself a cheat, since RL in infinite diversity cannot, by definition, be no-win, and turn it onto Kirk with a reputation for being a hothead.

[Actually, it was kind of brilliant a piece of manipulation if it hadn't been stopped short. There wasn't a logical reason at that point to bring up George Kirk at all in an argument regarding whether or not the simulation was a cheat; George Kirk had no bearing on whether or not something was wrong with the test. It was a direct hit on James Kirk to derail the argument away from "The test is a cheat and here is why" and to "James Kirk is a hothead and does shit like this; see how emotional he is? He can't be trusted. Get rid of him. And live long and prosper, fucker."]

[I tend toward thinking Spock has a scorched earth policy going on.]

Ships in Space

McCoy, for reasons best known to himself (how he could not have foreseen the chain of events to follow is beyond me; I call deliberate blindness) got Kirk aboard the Enterprise, where Kirk overhears the magic words "lightning storm in space" and runs for Uhura (of course) to play connect the dots.

Pike (who is less surprised by the magic of Kirk on his bridge; there was an air of "of course, yeah, this is my life, I recruited you. Of course you'll be annoying me here.") makes the executive decision to pause and consider before going to Vulcan and so misses the slaughter of a lot of ships. Because this is what captains do--ie, run quickly into traps because what the hell, why not?--Pike follows the same pattern that killed the captain of the Kelvin and leaves Spock in charge, then, because maybe he also remembers George Kirk's idea of how to win a no-win, Kirk as his first officer. Because yes, he does have a sick sense of humor like that. And because if this goes pear shape, its probably not the worst idea in history to have someone around who likes to cheat.

[Seriously. Pike was at that damn academic hearing. I have no idea what he was thinking, but my best guess is he was torn between agreeing it was bad to cheat and also seeing Kirk's point. And he did a dissertation on the events of the Kevlin; he might have been less amused by Spock dragging out George Kirk, who was his example to Kirk of someone who didn't accept a no-win, and using that as a weapon proving the no-win.]

Mutiny on the USS Enterprise

Vulcan's destruction was just cool, in a very depressing, very parallel way to the destruction of Romulus in Primeverse (and isn't that something that's hard to fathom; in Prime, Romulus and Remus are gone. Poof. There is no longer a Romulus.

Whilst Pike enjoys Nero's hospitality, Spock goes to get his parents and the Vulcan elders, who are hanging out underground for reasons that I'm sure are important, and gets them back to the ship, sans his mother. Spock, who has had a lousy few days, loses his planet and his mother in one fell swoop. It sucks to be Spock. On his return, he orders them to go to Laurentian system for the rest of the fleet (why is the fleet there anyway?) and Kirk--disagrees.

I went to double check, even though the movie's fairly fresh in my memory; Kirk says argue the point, and Spock has him arrested. When Kirk starts fighting, he has him thrown off the ship.

[Like I said, this isn't reaction in moderation; this is scorched fucking earth. Mess with a test; get thrown out of the Academy. Rebel against ship authority, exile from the ship. For some reason, the perfectly servicable brig wasn't quite enough. No. Put them in a pod and onto an ice planet.]

Spock Prime

This is going to need like, an essay on everything that hurt about that meeting; everything that was sweet and everything that was bittersweet, and everything that hurt to watch and feel and wonder about. Spock never knew this Kirk, period, but he also never knew this Kirk at this age, which is a very long five to six years of not only maturity, but service on a starship. Even if Kirk had been a perfect parallel, the difference would have been huge. He remembers the man he served with that was already a captain, an officer, who'd done a lot more and seen so much more and been tempered in ways that this Kirk simply isn't. With the further changes in the timeline, this is a Kirk that has the potential to be the Kirk he knows, but with edge in him that's pure thug; Kirk Prime fought when he had to and enjoyed it. Kirk Mark II grew up to learn how to like it, and to choose it even when it wasn't necessary.

I really just--did not expect my own reaction to watching them.

Mutiny on the Enterprise, Part II

I'd kill to work out what changes caused Scotty to be tossed into exile. I mean, I know why in this timeline, but what specifically would set off a chain of events that lead to him being exiled instead of on a starship.

Right. After getting the transwarp, Kirk and Scotty beam to teh Enterprise, where Spock looks with emotionless shock at Kirk reappearing impossibly and upon showing up on the bridge, begins the next round of "you see this is all circular" with Kirk using Spock's mother against him as a weapon ot prove emotional fitness.

Or you could say it like this: "Spock is being a hothead; see how emotional he is? He can't be trusted. Get rid of him. And live long and prosper, fucker."

Unfortunately for Spock, there was no sudden attack to catch his attention and stop proceedings. After attacking Kirk, he relieves himself of duty and wanders off to commune with his loss and his father. Kirk, Sulu reminds everyone, was appointed first officer of the ship, and they take off to save Earth from Nero.

Okay, Plan, Sure

After Spock returns after finding emotional equilibrium (or accepting there cant' be any yet), tehy work out a plan to go rescue Pike and stop Nero from destroying Earth and then the rest of the Federation. It's--fighting. It's fun to watch.

It's interesting that Kirk manages to convey "Mindrape the Romulan" without ever mentioning how the hell he knew about mind melds and not actually ever referring to it. Spock, being--well, scorched earth Spock of lore, jumps all over that shit, and they split to carry out their plan of getting Pike and destroying Nero's ship. There's more fighting. They, you know, succeed. I mean, it was fun! But lots of action.

After returning to the ship, Kirk, in a stunning display of newfound mercy, offers to help Nero if he turns himself in. Spock, reprising his role as one who likes victory best when all the enemies are in their component parts, would rather skip to the component parts. And Nero refuses anyway, and there is destruction.

Ending

Kirk is captain, the crew is teh crew, and they go off for adventures.

Okay, What?

I could go on a week about this, but while I totally get people saying "HE IS CAPTAIN? WTF?" I will say also, ti's not like the entire damn crew isn't working well above their natural paygrade. As in, Chekov is seventeen?

So, my general and totally wrong yet pleasing assumptions:

1.) They lost six ships totally, all crew and cadets--that's a hell of a lot of people. For that matter, what the hell were they doing calling cadets anyway? Chekov was in a senior position before destruction occurred. Sulu was second senior. I can't tell for sure from Uhura, but I'm going on a limb and saying she was also second most senior since that seems to be a pattern. They were graduating cadets to the second highest positions already. Spock was the one that made the most sense in becoming first officer, but that seems to imply that in seven ships, there was no one with more experience on a ship, period</i>. McCoy was one person from senior. They were already way up the food chain before seven ships were lost.

2.) The Laurentian ships crews were not up for transfer.

Okay, unprovable, but here we go--this is after like, several nights of talking with niqaeli:

AT best, teh Federation was always at cold war levels with Klingons and later the Romulans. When a Romulan ship destroyed the Kelvin, the Federation fleet stopped being Explore in Peace first and became Protect the Federation first, with exploration being a secondary objective. It took the Enterprise three years after Kirk started at the Academy to be completed. If exploration was of lower priority, it would make sense that the half-finished ship would take that long to get commissioned. And explain why it, along with the other six ships, being lower priority and therefore less in danger, be where you trained cadets before sending them to the important ships.

According to Memory Alpha, the Fleet was doing training maneuvers there. Granted, there are a dozen reasons to send your entire fleet minus seven to hang out in a particular system to train. I just wonder what kind of training exercises really require an entire fleet of ships all at once.

If you thought you were going to war really soon? That could be a reason. Just saying.

Spock and Uhura

News to me, TOS had some background for this one; there are two or three eps that were mentioned on a messageboard with some canon background, which made it so much easier for me personally to go, "Ooh, yeah. That's workable." So my initial "Er, really?" is more "Huh, that's kind of neat." I like continuity. It makes me happy. And I do want to see them with a Vulcan lyre a lot. And I'd love to hear Uhura sing.

Spock and Kirk

In TOS, Spock was a restraining and cooling influence on the much more emotional Kirk. Their relationship was adversarial but not personally so; I find it unbelievably awesome that this is going to be the opposite. If Pike had searched the galaxy in this universe to find the one person who will do the same job without the same results, he could not have done better. This is two people who can compare and contrast their juvenile arrest records. This is two people who already have a habit of fighting personally and escalate each other to violence. Their intial reactions to being challenged by each other is already set in the habit of going for the throat first.

It's like they were looking all their lives for the one person they can't break, and lookie here, there you go. Jim Kirk, who doesn't know how to lose, and Spock, who burns down the village and salts the earth when he goes to war.

They are going to have some epic fights, and some epic angry sex.

Actually, it's a neat symmetry. Despite appearances, Uhura keeps Spock grounded in what makes him Vulcan, in a way; Kirk's what connects him to humanity's unrestrained passion. Spock makes Kirk fight for every inch, explain himself, wear himself out against something; McCoy keeps Kirk from just wallowing in his own tendencies to leap and scream without thought.

McCoy and Uhura are going to bond, I can feel it.

Right. That's my intial thoughts.

I'm ridiculously in love with Spock. I mean, Kirk owned me from the start, but in TOS, Spock was awesome but he did not really--do it for me. Who knows why. Then this Spock is--wow. Just. I did not see that coming. Dear God.

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yes. yes. also, yes.

nothing gets me like the two of them standing on the bridge together, staring down nero without a blink or a twitch. with a perfect, unanimous stone wall. the galaxy better goddamn beware, that's all i'm sayin.

I love that when they come back, their body language is perfectly synched. It's beautiful.

The specs on this Enterprise versus the Enterprise Prime are, like, MASSIVELY different, in that we're talking a crew compliment of 1100, and the ship's almost three times as big as the Prime's 1701. To me, this is like ENterprise-E being badass after the Borg, so I totally buy it.

uhura was originally in the bowels of the ship with the rest pof the cadet comm officers--she got promoted by Pike to the bridge assignment when he found out she knew 3 dialects of Romulan. Also, Sulu was filling in for the helmsman who was sick.

But I figure, Enterprise launched early. So their senior staff had ahd their orders cut (I still assume eitehr Number One was now XO on the Yorktown, or was on her way to join Pike in time for the official launch date) but the Battle of Vulcan meant 1701 launched early. So it was crewed almost entirely by cadets.

As for Kirk getting promoetd--we're looking at a Starfleet that just lost 7 ships (Ayel tells Nero 7 ships were in warp on theri way before they ever get Enterprise on theri sensors) and even if those ships are Constellation class with the TOS crew compliment of 400 each, that's still 2400+ officers, crewmen, and however many of the Class of 2258 who all died almost the moment they came out of warp because the only reason there was time for the USS Kelvin to launch pdos was becasue Nero was still assessing the sitch. By then, Nero had to keep ANYONE from interferming with the drill. And any pods that were launched would have been caught in teh garvity well of the collapsing singularity.

Anywya, I think a LOT of the field promotions Starfleet would have let stand, because they simply need WARM BODIES to crew ships, and Enterprise was the only ship without a crew. And we've no ieda what the elapsed time was between the destruction of the Narada, and Kirk's commissioning ceremony. I guessed weeks, but it could have been months.

I may have spent a lot of time dealing with this recently.

Along with field promotions, I remember someone posting on one of the nu!trek comms about how, at least in the navy, they have a way to jump multiple positions, so you don't even have to be directly promoted to what's next, which could explain how Jim went from cadet to second in command of the ship.

And because if this goes pear shape, its probably not the worst idea in history to have someone around who likes to cheat.

Love this line, partially because I feel that Pike might be just the type of man to realize they might need someone who *cough* draws outside the lines.

The parallels are very interesting, I totally loved that about the movie. It got me quite a bit more invested in the Kirk-Spock interaction than TOS ever managed.

I like the Cold War/going to war theory. Also, I was wondering, considering the sorts of people we saw, if the cadets on the Enterprise weren't some sort of honor student types. Like, on some sort of fast track to better positions/getting more intensive training/etc. Maybe whatever the equivalent difference would be between enlisted soldiers and highly educated officers.

It's like they were looking all their lives for the one person they can't break

YES. THIS. I'm kinda hot for this, no joke.


I like the Cold War/going to war theory. Also, I was wondering, considering the sorts of people we saw, if the cadets on the Enterprise weren't some sort of honor student types. Like, on some sort of fast track to better positions/getting more intensive training/etc. Maybe whatever the equivalent difference would be between enlisted soldiers and highly educated officers.


Good point. That's very probable.

I love this analysis. Because everyone found out twenty-ish years earlier than Prime-verse that Romulans looked like Vulcans and, oh yeah, they destroyed a Federation ship. Vulcans may very well have had to defend themselves ethically within the Federation, which would lead to even tighter inner walls.

And if there's backlash against Vulcans for a while (until they convince everyone that just because they never told anyone about the relationship with the Romulans doesn't mean that they're untrustworthy), Amanda and Sarek's relationship is even more controversial than in Prime-verse.

Also, I adore your K/S thoughts.

Edited at 2009-05-23 07:50 am (UTC)

That's what i was thinking, and explains the much cuddlier Sarek. With a human wife, if Vulcan was getting reactionary, he'd revolt against that in his very Vulcan way. And so Spock going to Starfleet wouldnt' be inexplicable--it would be understandable. Better relationship between father and son.

Kirk and Spock are hot like whoa. The anger and how they synch when they can focus that anger on something together is scary. I just--their missions are going to be kind of on the edge of terrifying.

Is the novelisation available online?

I think downloadable from kindle? Someone said that on my flist.

Spock and his temper have a stronger bonding experience due to (speculative) Vulcan xenophobia getting a kick in the ass at the appearance of Romulans thirty years too early and probably only a few years after his birth. Instead of just being a hybrid with a (lesser) human mother, he's a hybrid who is the son of a traitor to racial purity. That's two very, very different mindsets.

Thank you so much for clarifying this for me. I knew that this Spock was different (how could you miss it, really?), but I couldn't figure out why. His parents were the same, after all; it's not like he was raised by a step-parent. But yes, the early introduction of the Romulans is like "Balance of Terror" on steroids, twenty years early.

There wasn't a logical reason at that point to bring up George Kirk at all in an argument regarding whether or not the simulation was a cheat; George Kirk had no bearing on whether or not something was wrong with the test. It was a direct hit on James Kirk to derail the argument away from "The test is a cheat and here is why" and to "James Kirk is a hothead and does shit like this; see how emotional he is? He can't be trusted. Get rid of him. And live long and prosper, fucker."

I was actually shocked when Spock brought up George Kirk in that scene. It was... really below the belt, and my first inkling that this Spock really was very different from what I was used to. As you pointed out, I love that Kirk used the same strategy later in the film; the "You of all people" was also an unsettling echo of the Vulcan Science Academy's "with your disadvantages..." While the Vulcan board probably had no idea they were being so insulting (or thought they were being complimentary), Spock took the tactic knowing exactly what he was doing. It was getting personal, and it was bullying, and so coming from SPOCK (or my then-conception of who Spock was), it was really unsettling.

It's like they were looking all their lives for the one person they can't break, and lookie here, there you go. Jim Kirk, who doesn't know how to lose, and Spock, who burns down the village and salts the earth when he goes to war.

Oh, god. I like to think of the higher-ups in Starfleet pretty much pleased as punch with Spock v. Kirk in the courtroom, because these two square pegs that they didn't know what to do with and couldn't quite control (because one was a loose cannon who didn't follow regulations and pushed his way into and through any situation and the other was a cool bundle of super-competent unflappability who was smarter than anyone else in the room and who would mow you down and leave you in little pieces all the while following the rules to the letter) were occupied with each other. And then I like to think of those same higher ups looking at these two square pegs suddenly and unexpectedly completely united, shoulder-to-shoulder and walking IN SYNC, and thinking, "Oh. Shit."

McCoy and Uhura are going to bond, I can feel it.

Oh, I so want McCoy-Uhura fic now.






I... anonymously agree. Spock-and-Kirk, Kirk-and-Spock kicking ass on a united front.

This is the most glorious piece of meta I've ever read. 100% AGREED!! I think I have to make every person I know read this RIGHT NOW.

This in particular: It's like they were looking all their lives for the one person they can't break, and lookie here, there you go. Jim Kirk, who doesn't know how to lose, and Spock, who burns down the village and salts the earth when he goes to war.

They are going to have some epic fights, and some epic angry sex.


Eeeeeeeeeeeeeaigh, YES. Your views on Spock are pretty much identical to mine. You GET him, dude, omg. I seriously fell hopelessly and madly in love with Spock something like 20 minutes into the movie, and this post explains why. Aigh.

Um. Sorry for barging into your space unannounced!! Danny linked me a bit ago, and it occurred to me I should come tell YOU I thought this was a fantastic read instead of just yapping in her ear about how excellent it was for half an hour. :D

Thank you! Bang in anytime!

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeaigh, YES. Your views on Spock are pretty much identical to mine. You GET him, dude, omg. I seriously fell hopelessly and madly in love with Spock something like 20 minutes into the movie, and this post explains why. Aigh.

I think I was mumbling "God bless JJ Abrams" through pretty much every Spock scene.

and isn't that something that's hard to fathom; in Prime, Romulus and Remus are gone. Poof. There is no longer a Romulus.

It's entirely possible that in the "real" Prime universe the planets are still there, and the timeline where they were destroyed by a freak nova was yet another split off the "main" timeline.

Spock never knew this Kirk, period

I'm shipping Kirk/Spock Prime like whoa. Who knows what else Jim saw in the mind meld?

They are going to have some epic fights, and some epic angry sex.

Uh, yeah, I ship that too. Hard not to.

I'd love that if it were true. I'm not getting that from canon, but honestly, I'd prefer to believe it, even with the parallelism and symmetry.

Shipping Kirks with Spocks? Very awesome. *happy*

I really like your idea as to why Spock would be so different in this 'verse when the one who was impacted the strongest was Kirk. The knowledge of Romulans having common genetic ancestry with Vulcan's being revealed nearly 30 years ahead of time would have a deep impact on Vulcan society.

And it would have an impact on her Earth viewed Vulcan. After all before the revelation of Romulans in Balance of Terror, there had been a war against Romulans, one there Earth and Romulans never ever saw each other. Once fought by a previous generation that resulted in such things as the Neutral Zone. The suspicion against Vulcans is even brought up in the original TOS episode so you've hit it right on the money in my opinion.

It's like they were looking all their lives for the one person they can't break, and lookie here, there you go. Jim Kirk, who doesn't know how to lose, and Spock, who burns down the village and salts the earth when he goes to war. They are going to have some epic fights, and some epic angry sex.

Um. Yes. To the whole thing there.

They are soulmates, even when they are angry, strangle each other, enraged soulmates. \o/

Good, I love that movie.

And it would have an impact on her Earth viewed Vulcan. After all before the revelation of Romulans in Balance of Terror, there had been a war against Romulans, one there Earth and Romulans never ever saw each other. Once fought by a previous generation that resulted in such things as the Neutral Zone. The suspicion against Vulcans is even brought up in the original TOS episode so you've hit it right on the money in my opinion.

Ooh, that helped clarify my question of why Federation turned to her cadets to help out Vulcan. Granted, I don't know too much of TOS (I grew up with next gen) but I thought Earth and Vulcan were pretty tight. And given that the Vulcans wouldn't be likely to ask for help out of hysteria...It seemed odd.

Two important things:

1. Bones comes into this a Lt Commander, which totally makes sense because most MD's making it through some sort of program like that would be a bump above the rest and I think him taking over as CMO is not a huge stretch because considering his age I'm fairly sure he's completely through residency by the time he joins up.

2 Kirk introduces himself as James T. Kirk for the first time after getting back from Nero's ship. It's also the first chance he's gotten to do so since the mindmeld. DISCUSS.

re: 2? OOOOOoooohhhhhhhh I didn't notice that....

(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand

They are going to have some epic fights, and some epic angry sex


OH GOD YES!!!!!! and can't wait to read some of that.....
pleasetobewritingsomeofthatnow?

*falls over* Probably next week. Ther'es heavy testing at work this week, so next weekend, if I am feeling it, I am back to writing.

> It's like they were looking all their lives for the one person they can't break, and lookie here, there you go. Jim Kirk, who doesn't know how to lose, and Spock, who burns down the village and salts the earth when he goes to war.

They are going to be so very, very scary in this universe, I totally agree.

Reading your meta, I was reminded of a fic I ran into a week and a half ago that I had a similar reaction to; it made me go, "omg, they're so broken by comparison to TOS" at the beginning and then by the end, "omg, what a FORCE they're going to be...." I don't know if you've seen it yet?

What Lies Beneath, by ragdoll987.

Oh, thank you! Fic yay!

I'm so depressed that this film didn't do any of the above for me. I can appreciate it vicariously on a meta level, and if I have the inclination I know the fic will be spectacular, but the film itself? Not so much. *EPIC SADFACE*

*winces* Sorry! That happens. I get this way with Fast and Furious. I toally appreciate the fun of cars and hot guys, but the fic--no. *Sighs*

in TOS, Spock was awesome but he did not really--do it for me. Who knows why. Then this Spock is--wow.

THIS. On paper, Spock has always looked like a character I should be crazy in love with - there are things there that are freaking TAILOR MADE to fit my bullet-proof kinks. And yet somehow the TOS version of him never quite hits home with me. Like, it should be right, but for unfathomable reasons it never quite clicks. And then, NOW, there is THIS Spock, and omg does he hit home with a vengeance. This right here is the Spock I always wanted without ever really knowing it, and I am so very, very head-over-heels. Just... *incoherent flaily hands*

This is an amazing analyzis. Bravo.

Thank you!

Yes, Spock is--very new and fascinating and wow.

Only way this reset could have owned me a little more would have been to leave Spock in charge of the ship and have Kirk learn to cope.

I'm fairly sure Spock would have been captain if teh presumed desire to rush off ot Vulcan: The Colonial Experience hadn't interfered. It would have been interesting, definitely.

I don't see Kirk reacting negatively (other than being an pain in the ass first officer, as one does when one is first officer) so I would have enjoyed it.


I was really looking forward to your thoughts on the movie! I loved your analysis, especially on the timeline changes and how they affect everyone and everything.

My mother- my MOTHER noted to me after seeing the movie that the biggest difference that she saw with Spock was that his conflicts arose because of his mother and his relationship with her, rather than Spock prime's conflict and difficulty with Sarek. Sarek seems to be much more supportive of Spock, although we don't know if he broke with this Spock over Starfleet they way Sarek Prime did, but certainly they've- I don't know if reconciled is the word, but they've come to a closer understanding by the end of the movie, which in the original canon they never really did.

I thought the movie did a wonderful job in just a few short scenes of showing that Amanda was both someone Spock sort of resented/was ashamed of, and yet felt incredibly incredibly protective of. An increased Xenophobia in Vulcan society can certainly explain this- I hadn't thought about the early arrival of the Romulans causing that, although my TOS era knowledge is sketchy.

While it did parallel Kirk's relationship with his father's memory, it was a little different, because Spock sure as shit got a lot ANGRIER about it- Kirk is all "my father, what? Oh, hey, I'm stealing your car/joining Starfleet/reprogramming this test" and Spock just attempts to kill you.

You are dead dead dead right about Spcck repressing his emotions rather than controlling them. As he says- "I'm as conflicted as I once was as a child." and I think it makes it clear that the Spock of this universe has much less self awareness- original Spock joins Starfleet (I believe) because that's where he wants to go, while this Spock appears to join Starfleet because he wants to piss off the older Vulcans. It explains his "by the book" attitude more, to me.

(I'm jumping around A LOT here.) Kirk with Spock on Nero's ship is awesome- the second time I saw the film I really noticed how in all the planning, Kirk never says "the ship" or "the Jellyfish" or "the red matter"- he refers to it as "the black hole device" in the same way that Spock and the rest of the crew do, even though Kirk knows as the audience does, what's going on. His delivery of "that's weird!" when the ship recognizes Spock is awesome, and Spock's realization that Kirk is a lot smarter than he thought he was- very nice. It's as though he finally comes to the realization that Pike had almost before the movie- that Starfleet needs more officers like Kirk.

Spock Prime was- guh. Leonard Nimoy IS Spock at this point, and the contrast between the two actors was awesome- Spock Prime is like this weirdly relaxed Vulcan, and his whole "hey Jim, wow, this is awesome, you're so young and cute, let's immediately mind meld and GO because we've got THINGS to do! Places to go! Planets to rescue!" He's setting things up so that Kirk and Spock realize their friendship potential, both because he knows that it has to be for the future of the Federation, but also for selfish reasons- as he says- I don't want to deny myself the pleasure of learning how to be Kirk's friend. And that was just the most wonderful, beautiful moment- Spock Prime dealing with both Spock and Kirk was so gorgeous.

(That's why, for selfish reasons, I'm glad they didn't get Shatner, because I think he would have just been too self-aware- it would have thrown me out of the movie in a way that Nimoy didn't.)

I can't wait to see the next movie- I hope they don't retread any of the other stuff, like Khan, and just go for an all out conflict with the Klingons. They did time travel really, really well in this one, but let's not do it again- I want to see something old school.

THIS MOVIE MAKES ME SO HAPPY AND THINKY, I CAN'T EVEN.

User apocalypsos referenced to your post from A few things saying: [...] They're bigger men than I. (That wouldn't take much. Warwick Davis is a bigger man than I.) -- has thoughts on STXI. I approve and wish to subscribe to her newsletter. -- Fox non-apologizes for Nigel's SYTYCD remarks the other day.... [...]

Even in TOS, Spock had it in him to be a scary son-of-a-bitch on occasion. That quality got diluted over time, though, in all the touchy-feelyness of TNG and of most of the movies, and I was happy to see that the re-boot brought it back.

I was also unreasonably pleased to see that Kirk was still canonically the poster boy for an excess of testosterone.

This was an amazing bit of meta; really helped me clarify my own thoughts on the movie and oh MAN I did not realise the extent of the parallels between Kirk and Spock. This movie, man! Anyway, highly enjoyable read.

Thank you! The movie == so much awesome.

1. I am kind of disturbingly amused by all of the times Kirk gets beaten up in that movie. He is a poster boy for self-destructive.

2. I like you thoughts as to why Spock is angrier in the movie than in TOS (and it has now become my personal canon), but Spock Prime also joined Starfleet. How are you reconciling that?

3. I really enjoy the darker Spock. I mean, Vulcans always had that really darker side to them, but we don't usually get to see it, unless they are having... let us say psychological issues. This? This was totally kink-hitting.

Brilliant. Thanks for this extremely well-thought-out and insightful analysis. Now I'm all "MUST SEE AGAIN!" so I can watch it with your notions in mind. :D

Alt!Scotty's smile is my smile right now. I love this analysis of how gloriously fucked up this rebooted universe is.

(I've really enjoyed the film, too, twice so far. I'm here via apocalypsos.)

I dunno -- I agree that this Spock is angrier than Spock Prime, but remember we also met Spock Prime when he was quite a bit older than this Spock. And Spock Prime has said that he represses rather than controlling (...dammit, what TOS ep was that?). Vulcan children were *always* cruel to Spock -- this is TOS canon as well. (The fighting is not, but it's not excluded, either.)

I'm not sayin' this one doesn't have a scorched-earth policy, because LIKE WHOA. I'm saying the first one had gotten past some of that by the time we met him, but it still leaked out in occasional passionate intensity or turned up when his emotional control/repression was deleted somehow (like when he attacked McCoy because they were back in the savage past).

IN OTHER NEWS. I love your time travel theories, esp. the time-trying-to-correct-itself. All of Trek's various weirdass timelines and alternate realities now make a LOT more sense.

I'm torn on Trek Prime and this one on the issue of Spock--the age is a factor, but I think the textual emphasis on Spock's bullies, and the Academy's rather dramatic formal bullying, is supposed to give the impression this is different for Spock, and again, parallelism with Kirk growing up. I think textualizing Spock's childhood like this is supposed to make that point. But def YMMV.

Also, in this, the novel text, soft canon at best, posits a much less adversarial relationship between Sarek and Spock, which is backed by the movie relationship being textually much less fraught. With a Vulcan that is xenophobic to the point of outright racism, it would make sense that Sarek would be a lot more understanding of Spock's choices as an adult; and for that matter, his childhood wouldn't have had quite the same intensity of conflict. It would be harder for Sarek to really force the point of being Vulcan hardcore if Vulcan meant Spock had to accept his father was a race traitor and his mother a whore.

It could have happened in Prime universe, but while it's been a while since my TOS direct viewing, I never got a true edge of bitter racism instead of noble savage. That's not necessarily a difficult line for Vulcan as a people to cross when they're already mildly xenophobic.

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