The Toybox

people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation


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this would make a lot more sense if I were male, which tells me everything
children of dune - leto 1
seperis
There is no part of me that did not flinch.

The Open-Source Boob Project, and even writing that, I feel like I've given up something.

Okay, here's the thing. Short skirt, pantyhose, tight pants, tight shirt, no bra, no underwear, high heels, lipstick, eyeliner, perfect teeth, perfect breasts, smile already, you look sad, straighten your back, chin up, posture, nice ass, that's my life, kids, that's our lives, that's what we see and what we hear and what we're asked to be--I was born wearing green and will wear it until the day I die.

Now you want to legitimize it? I want to take that color off.

Thanks a bunch. Really. What we actually needed here was agency on top. You don't get to ask this. You are not entitled to it. You have no fundamental right to the question. Why, in the name of God, is this. So. Hard?

For people who are actually articulate and not on the point of tears of Jesus fuck, why are you not getting this:

This by springheel_jack, this by kate_nepveu, this by hernewshoes, and this by brown_betty.

I keep going back and thinking it cannot, cannot actually be what it reads as, and every time, it really, really is.

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IAWTP.

I wish I could be more coherent about it but I can't really get over the fact that it even exists enough to be articulate.

I had to strip out a lot of profanity. It shorted my post considerably.

I keep trying to get my sense of humor back and it's totally not happening. I can't even mock it. The sheer horrified realizatoin of not just blindness, but active work to not understand keeps throwing me backward.


Okay, here's the thing. Short skirt, pantyhose, tight pants, tight shirt, no bra, no underwear, high heels, lipstick, eyeliner, perfect teeth, perfect breasts, smile already, you look sad, straighten your back, chin up, posture, nice ass, that's my life, kids, that's our lives, that's what we see and what we hear and what we're asked to be--I was born wearing green and will wear it until the day I die.

Now you want to legitimize it? I want to take that color off.


Exactly.

I have never been on the point of tears before; the sheer blindness is unnerving, but so is the support. I can't get why they not only don't understand the problem, they refuse ot appreciate it even on a theoretical level. Like if they do not feel it, it does not exist.

That's terrifying.

I got about three paragraphs into that, realised where it was going and decided there was no way I was in the right frame of mind to read about some guy who thought he was cool for asking women if they'd mind him groping them.

Actually, I don't think I'll ever be in the right frame of mind to read about that.

How can people not see how inappropriate that is??? Being able to say no doesn't make it okay. When I was 18, some guy in a car yelled over to ask if he could fuck me, and I went back into work in tears and couldn't tell them why I was crying; not because he'd done anything (he drove off before I could even come up with an answer) but because he made me feel that unsafe by asking.

I think, to make a sweeping generalisation, that most men never epxerience anything like that, while most women do, and they just don't get how scary it is to be asked a question about your body or someone touching it by a stranger.

I don't think anyone can be in the right frame of mind. I just start twitching whenever I think about it too much. I imagine going to a con and seeing this and--completely shut down. Completely.

And yes, I hate to say it, but a lot of this does feel like male pov. The complete inability to understand we barely have agency over our bodies now. We have to fight for something that should be ours by right of birth. This is not helping.

*hugs you* I've had similar things like that happen to me, too. So yeah. Exactly.

This may make you feel a little happier.

Awww. Better, yes. *hugs you*

Saw a beautiful satire of this linked in a friend's comments.

I started to skim the first part of it and had to click the fuck away because my stomach started churning and I really don't need more rage in my life at the moment.

(I really cannot wait for priviledged white men to stop whining that we're fucking oppressing them by not letting them have that which they have never had any right to but have still historically taken. I have my problems with some of the solutions we've tried in solving pretty much every *ism we've tried to solve, but the problem doesn't go away because the solutions and the solution to having no easy, fun solutions is not to say that there isn't a problem.)

Oh that's awesome. I love that!

And yes. That. What you said, verbatim.

I was born wearing green and will wear it until the day I die.

Yes, exactly. But you know the OP (if not most men in general) will never, ever understand that. *Ever.*

And now I feel the urge to boycott the color green entirely.

You aren't the only one. I just checked my clothes in a fit of unreasonable hatred against the color.

"You have no fundamental right to the question."

I think that's the part that upset me the most, the claim by the OP that yes, he had the right to ask (and how nice to tell us that we have the right to say no).

NO, you bloody well do not have the right to ask such a question of every woman you meet. If I decide that you're someone I don't mind allowing across my personal space boundaries, I will tell you that, either explicitly in words or implicitly following one of the accepted social conventions for expressing intimate interest in a person.

In a society where a guy can hear a woman's response to his request to know the time as implying that she's open to more (and I can't find the link to that study right now, but wow, did it upset me), a direct question about touching any part of my body is going to seem to me to be a threat. There are too many men out there who don't actually listen to a woman's answer for me to trust that you will respect mine.

And for the record, it's always going to be NO.

Yes. What is *hard* about the idea that no, you are *not* entitled to ask me about the grope potential of my body? That this is even *up for discussion* boggles the mind.

And hell yes. The answer will be *NO*. Possibly with Hell attached.

Thank you for this. You summed up my reaction so well.

I read a lot of the posts reacting to this this morning, then came in to campus to work on stuff for my thesis defense tomorrow. A bunch of my fellow students wished me luck, and at least two said to make sure I wore a short skirt or a low-cut shirt and I'm guaranteed to pass.

And then they said I need to relax and calm down, because why didn't I laugh?

*twitch* Like icing. And so damn prevalent.

*sends support* Thesis defense FTW!

Ugh. I was reading that earlier and made me feel so dirty OMG. Dirty and angry, and like I want to wear three sweaters to the archive tomorrow.

I really just don't understand.

God yes. And me either. Argh.

I posted a rant in my own LJ but couldn't be as articulate or as smart as I wanted because I feel so angry and upset over this.

What's next? Are they going to then stick their hands between my legs to admire my cunt?

I was waiting for someone to add that as a stunning way to take it To the Next Level.

I was like WTF? when I read it myself.

Then, I read this: http://misia.livejournal.com/1055120.html and at least got a bit of a laugh out of the whole disgusting mess.

open-source, I was there

greyhat

2008-04-22 08:46 pm (UTC)

What you need to know about the "Open-Source Boob Project" at Penguicon 2008. (see also the follow-up)

1) Michigan scifi fandom is very touch-positive. People hug and touch and cuddle at the drop of a hat at small and large gatherings. It's weird if you're not used to it. People expect that everyone hugs everyone hello and goodbye, though it's not considered rude not to do so.

2) Michigan scifi conventions are very safe places for nearly everyone. (I'd say everyone, except that there's an exception to every rule.) Women and girls can dress however they like and not fear assault because there's a shared community value that prohibits assault, and bystanders would intervene. Bystanders have intervened when people new to the community crossed

3) Many women and girls (meaning teens) take advantage of the safe space to explore their provocative sides. It's something they probably would never do in the "real" world because of the consequences, but they do it here. I mean really provocative, including nearly naked with a bunch of body paint and a bit of fabric. I mean t-shirts with provocative sayings or even air-brushed eyeballs where the boobs are.

I'm kind of surprised that something like the "Open -Source Boob Project" has not occurred before.

Re: open-source, I was there

seperis

2008-04-22 08:56 pm (UTC)

In this case, though, context doesn't mean anything, not when it's being touted as a movement, not outside a specific place and specific time. This isn't a What Happened to Me at the Con; this is the equivalent of a manifesto of "Why Can I Not Grope Everywhere, Let Us All Share Woman Boobs As Spaghetti Monster Intended It to Be".

Boobs. Not breasts. A five year old, ten year old child's word, and that doesn't help.

The language was horrifying in a way I can't deal with on any rational level, from the princess in blue to those girls who shyly asked if their breasts were good enough to grope. Even going there sets up whole new trains of nausea and anger.

I mean--as a con report, I would have found it squicky and a vague feeling of both "Probably wasn't as squicky if I were a participant, very drunk, and male" and "Don't party with these people ever". This is a hell of a lot more than that.

*edited for weird sentence trailing off to nowhere

Edited at 2008-04-22 09:00 pm (UTC)

I think I'm less disturbed that people came up with this at a con, than I am that they came home, thought this was a good idea, and decided to post about it publicly.

I am also kind of wondering what one GETS out of it. I mean, I freak out when people touch my hair without warning, so maybe I'm just naive, but do women normally get off on socially maladjusted dudes coming over to feel up their tits?

do women normally get off on socially maladjusted dudes coming over to feel up their tits?

Those dudes sure want to THINK we do, don't they? Only now they're trying to make it seem like those of us who *don't* just aren't enlightened enough.

*sigh* The more things change...

OMGWTF pretty much sums up my reaction, but I'm also fond of

The Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls project at http://misia.livejournal.com/1055120.html

I love that link. It's so freaking *soothing*.

This why I haven't dated in 5 years. Most men are pigs who only think with their dicks and see women as sex objects.

I can't even say at this point that I can legitimately disagree. This is just shoved in my face *again* how far we haven't come.

They have accomplished something few have..they have left me pretty much speechless.


I had some random banging on the keyboard. It was--wow. Just sheer amazement that I had read that.

I started to read the post and then the comments and then I looked at the most recent entries of the appropriately named ferret and the I was like -- wait, what? This happened at a Sci-Fi Con?

Wait in Michigan? And then I when to the website and I thought these are a sad looking bunch of people (mostly the guys-they look like what I assume Rodney fellow grad students looked like after 2 weeks trapped in the of Cal-tech labs -scraggly and unwashed!!) and the "celebrities" have written comic books and fantasy novels that I've NEVER HEARD OF-- no wonder the men are stumbling around, drooling and asking women to touch their ta-tas.

They probably never touched a real woman before. Of course they're thrilled they can without having to fork over some sort of payment.

They may not know any real women either because I think a real female friend would lay the proverbial smackdown. And I'm not speaking metaphorically either closed fist or back of the hand works best.

It doesn't even bother me anymore. I can't say I feel sorry for them (for being so very obviously and painfully pathetic--because I save my sympathy for those that deserve it). But they're just idiots. Stupidity is seriously the number one affliction throughout the world.

It's Just.
Even their Con is SAD.
People are stoopid.

It's--something there. I have no idea what. But that con is kinda off my list ever of going to. Just no.

Is this some kind of joke? Please tell me this Ferret person is some kind of delusional porn geek? Please.

What is Penguincon? What the fuck?

The part that added insult to injury: "And the woman retains the right to say no, of course..." As if you only have that right if you're wearing his fucking buttons. Jesus fucking wept. She also retains the right to knee you in the fucking nut sack too, buddy.


I too was hoping someone had soem kind of shroom experience they were relating. "And then the unicorn queen took me as her consort!" But no.

Okay, so he has more up now. And it's actually kind of reassuring, if massive backpeddling, at least until he reaches the point where he starts clarifying.

And then I'm back to foaming rage. Dammit.

Yep. There's just--the part that's driving me nuts is, he's *still not seeing the problem*. He's reacting to the backlash without acknowleding the fundamental flaw. Gah.

Personally I think that it's great that there's finally a safe place where I can express myself by going up to guys I don't know and kicking them swiftly and harshly in the testicles. And I think that I don't personally have to ask first, because really, what man doesn't want to be legitamised and valued by having his balls caressed? With a steel capped boot driven in at speed.

I think this will be a nuturing and fulfilling exercise for all parties concerned.

ah, my rage expressed

logovo

2008-04-22 09:06 pm (UTC)

THANK YOU.ah

That didn't take long

logovo

2008-04-22 09:04 pm (UTC)

Comments disabled now.

I have no idea who this guy is, but I'm sure the great majority of straight guys wouldn't see what the big deal is.

::is now depressed::

I hate the world sometimes.

Re: That didn't take long

seperis

2008-04-23 12:22 am (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking that too. And out there are many flocked posts from men I'll see at cons talking about all those frigid bitches and their scanty con-wear and how is this different?

There's not even a way to explain it.

Awww, and the poor baby has now disabled the comments.

Good thing he didn't post about, say, a Mary Jane statue--the comments would have given him a complete nervous breakdown.

What a wuss.

I do find that hysterical. I also have page six still open. Huh. I wonder if I can get the rest from my history, because seriously, this is one of the few times I want verification of what was said.

I--think this is going to haunt me for a while.

I feel so ILL right now.

*nods* There's nothing like a reminder of your place to really make your day complete.

Ten bucks says they'd be seriously uncomfortable when I decide to breastfeed my baby somewhere public.

(Which probably is neither here nor there, only...breastfeeding moms tend to think about their breasts a lot, and I was reading this post while pumping, so...)

Edited at 2008-04-22 09:26 pm (UTC)

*grins* I hate to say it, but I was thinking about that too.

On one hand, the idea of a space where people can grope each other pretty freely is neat, if you're into that thing. But the place for those kinds of things is in *private* and not on the main floor of a con, and the way he went about it, his justification and rationalization makes me just as enraged as everyone else.

I always feel as if I have some sort of disconnect when people are talking about this particular aspect of feminism. Because I *never* have those kinds of problems. I've never been sexually harassed, hell I can sit at a bar looking just as pretty as I can and only have to deal with a handful of casual flirts, because I'm tall. I'm almost six feet tall, in fact, I'm broad-shouldered and I wear huge boots. I hang around a bunch of guys, most of whom are also tall and occasionally scary-looking people, all the time. I intimidate men. And it's an incredibly neat and useful fact of my life that I'm very grateful for, but sometimes I feel like one of the guys who Just Doesn't Get It. Not because I in any way feel like a male, but because part of me will never be able to understand what it's like to be objectified and harassed. I can try as hard as I like to understand, and I can, intellectually, but not viscerally.

I can kind of see where guys come from. Not that guy, not in a million years, but some of the less offensive well-meaning ones. There really is a culture gap between the genders, and it's really not all one-sided.

Again, not defending the guy in question, by any means. Just like to drop in a good word for well-meaning guys in general. Some of them are my closest friends.

On one hand, the idea of a space where people can grope each other pretty freely is neat, if you're into that thing. But the place for those kinds of things is in *private* and not on the main floor of a con.

That was my first thought on reading it, actually -- more the former than the latter; I *absolutely* think that consenting adults have a right to do whatever they want with their own bodies, and if someone wants to have a private groping party at a con or anywhere else, I'm all for that. Actually, as someone who's vaguely curious about partner-swapping and such things but has never done anything like that, it's something I might be interested in participating in -- consensual groping in a safe and controlled environment.

I'm kinda weirded out by the idea of a small group of people trying to turn an entire con into a groping room, though, no matter how hard they tried to make it something that only those were interested had to participate in. In a safer, saner and more enlightened world, then maybe -- heck, that might be the *default* in such a world. But it feels like playing with fire in the world we've got. In fact, that's the feeling I get from the entire post -- someone who really does *mean* well, and has taken pains to make their idea as harmless as possible, while not really understanding the dark forces they're messing with. It reminds me of the Stanford Prison Experiment -- they mean well but don't understand enough about human psychology to anticipate just how badly things could get out of control.

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