The Toybox

people for the conservation of limited amounts of indignation


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svreview: rosetta, s2e17 - take two
children of dune - leto 1
seperis
Been thinking on Rosetta.

Cutting for spoilers, since I don't want to spoil anyone who hasn't got to see the show yet.



Something occured to me the other night while reading ClarkLex, which made me think, scarily, that Jor-el wasn't exactly as--imperialist as he sounds, though damn, it's kind of depressing, as I like the idea of Hordes of Kryptonians descending on Earth.

Damn. But anyway.

This is kind of rambly, because I'm not one hundred percent sure of all the connections. Spoilers for Skinwalker, Rush, Fever, and Rosetta, I think.

I don't think Jor-el specifically meant, go to this planet and conquer it. I think--THINK--using the anthropological information he had on Earth, he assumed that this would be the safest way to assure his son survived.

Okay, work with me here.

The last (only?) time a Kryptonian came to earth was (apparently, according to the information given) to hang out with the Skinwalker tribe, nomadic Kansas Indians, apparently. By Kryptonian standards, probably just about how we consider the Neanderthals now.

So there are two possiblities in that.

One--Kryptonian Guy A hung with the tribe, left the legend there, went to Krypton, and reported that this was what the species was like. Therefore, when Jor-El was mulling places for Clark to go, he looked at what he had. A primitive society, based off of, to their very scientific society, superstition, legend, and fable.

I'm not making a anthropological judgement here, just trying to work through things, so bear with me.

Now, Kryptonian Guy A knows all about the entire sun phenomenon. Probably scientifically documented in a variety of ways, etc. Jor-El looks at what he has. Clark will look human, so far so good, but he will be physiologically stronger, faster, and develop powers NO NORMAL HUMAN could have. In sending his child, he has the very real possiblity that this society would fear the child as a demon, based spirit, etc, whatever, and try to kill it. Hence, instruction to the ship and to Clark to go the god route, where your life tends to be a bit safer. Objects of worship are protected, etc.

This assumes Kryptonian Guy A didn't wander out and see who ELSE was bopping along on earth, but hey, maybe Kryptonians are at such a melting point in their own society that it didn't occur to them that on Earth, there was still a multitude of societies/cultures/steps on the industrial scale going on. Or that there WOULD be a huge differnece between the Indians they encountered and, say, some Europeans across the ocean, etc.

THis assumes that Kryptonians broke faster-than-light travel, quite literaly, and Kryptonian Guy got back very, very fast. Or sent his information Very Very Fast. Hell, maybe info travels faster than people, who knows.

Two--we jump everything down below the speed of light. The first Kryptonian was sent, as an adult, with some smarts at his side, to evaluate and prepare for the (possible) colonization of earth or maybe just because he was bored as hell and this was his job. Bop from planet to planet and evaluate, send info home, a la Star Trek. His leaving all that stuff was in case another Kryptonian stumbled in, though wow, they were really specific, weren't they?

Anyway. Again, his interpretation of society, if he was short sighted enough not to go looking for others, would be the baseline.

The reason this appeals to me as a theory is basically Star Trek--you know, they all bop by each planet and Everyone Is Exactly The Same All Over the Planet, same languae, same customs, etc, and you know, no one goes to look outside the Major City usually, unless it's because revolution is being planned. It's WEIRD. And something I did start noticing after awhile when I got old enough to think, hmm, we have three hundred languages and they have only ONE? Er, why?

Anyway, considering this is television, the theory works. Kryptonians saw Indians, said, hmm, everyone is like that, flawed people, be a god and avoid being burned as a demon blah blah blah.

Frankly, it's really practical. If that was what Jor-El was worried about, I can't really blame him that much.

Of course, the biggest flaw is the fact there was a signal that came to earth that was translatable with Clark's name and take care of our child thing, which no primitive society should have the capability to decode. But again, it comes down to exactly how much information and time Jor-El had before he shot off Clark toward earth. He might have been just covering all possiblities, which again, as a father, he would definitely want to do straight off the bat.

There are way way too many variables to be sure of any absolute, but the thing with Skinwalker does sit with me longest, espcecially with that made-to-order mythology. They had the mythology, and if that was what Jor-El thought that Clark would be dealing with, he would tell that ship to make sure Clark fit into it, to save him.

Again, speculation. I could be missing HUGE bits in the episodes that make this an exercise in illogical explanation. *g* I have no problem with that. And if anyone's said this before, my apologies upfront--I haven't seen anyone else specuating on this, honestly, as the dijointedness probably shows. *g*

You're still sick? awww...

Hey, I'm surprised that you are contemplating Jor-El in a better light. I mean, yes, I read "A Handful of Dust" more than once *delicate cough* and would think your brain would be scrambling right at this moment to explore the Clark as Beautiful Overlord angle. Heh, see how much I know?

Rosetta left me with the impression that Jor-El had some level of understanding of how Earth culture had developed so far and that this would be the safest place for Kal-El. I really love the "...be a God" thing but its going to be tuff to really assimilate into what I have in my head as Superman canon.

*giggles*

*looks at Dust and giggles more*

It's interesting that they chose this. Seriously so--I really love the idea of Clark fighting his destiny too. Much of hotness.

See, I'm not sure--if Krypton is so far away, I don't know HOW he'd get information about Earth, but again, that stupid speed of light thing is getting in the way. I need a physics person to sit down and give me some odds--I'm guessing they've found a way aroudn it, but I can't prove it, and I can't figure out how Jor-El would get current information, even if they DO beat light, in time to make it a part of his choice.

MUCH to ponder in possiblities.

MM. Clark in jackboots. *eg*

Was it Tharamis or you that talked about now both Lex *and* Clark fighting destiny? Oh, please, please let it be that TPTB don't drop the ball on this one.

Speed of light? *scratches brain* Isn't the theory that it would take an impossible amount of energy to move even the tiniest speck of matter at the speed of light? *stares into space* Huh--

Speed of light theory--yeah. There's an equation somewhere--I remember, vaguely, my astronomy teacher showing or telling us, but that was years ago and my memory is rusty--that shows what it would take or something along those lines when we were discussing it in class.

But depending on who you talk to, there's an entire thing with multiverse and relative speed and this is why I never took physics--my head hurts just thinking it. There's a website somewhere I used to go to when I was writing Trek that was devoted to all things space-y, so I may need to find it and see what it has on current theory regarding space travel and breaking the speed of light. Though me? I was happy with Trek's Warp Theory thing. Oh yes. It made me happy.

*g*

I think that what Jor El said was that Clark would be a "god among men", which, physically, is true. It was kind of a leap for Clark to go from that to "imperialist conquerers". I guess a narrow minded man like Jonathan would be good to have around in that scene. "No son, you're one of the white hats (like, say, from a cowboy show like, say, dukes of Hazzard), they never change sides.
-Silverkyst

*dies laughing*

*sees Clark in the General Lee*

*dies laughing*

You give me EVIL ideas.

You give me EVIL ideas.
Wow, and I wasn't even trying. (grin)
Well. Trying hard .
-Silverkyst

I rewatched Rosetta tonight, and thinking about the physics of space travel is making my head all hurty.

The faster than light versus slower than light argument is one I can never figure out. But remember this - Swann said that he went looking for Krypton "billions of miles out" and "nothing was there". I know that the images we see of the stars get older and older the farther away they go, which would indicate to me that Krypton was gone eons ago and Clark travelled below light speed. Or else, Swann got his coordinates wrong and light from Krypton is still travelling earthwards and he just didn't look in the right place.

Of course, I have no faith that M&G actually bothered to run their interstellar travel plans by any scientific review prior to filming the episode. Bah.

Yeah, that gave me pause, because that makes no sense. Unless Clark's civilization has been gone A LONG DAMN TIME, that star should still be shining. I used to have the numbers of the closest ten stars, and I don't think any of them are the speculated Krypton, and they were minimally light years away.

Hmm. I think Alpha Centauri, come to think, is the closest. I need to find my astronomy notes.

But yeah. There's no way Swann could see, unless in SV'verse, science is about ten-fifty years ahead of now, big time, or unless Krypton was speed of light and couldn't go faster, and Clark's been in space for centuries. Which begs teh question of why that other Kryptonian was wandering around, because then his visit becomes really REALLY significant. Though of what, I don't know.

Mmmm. We need scientists to tell us this stuff!

Yikes, had forgotten about that--- yeah, the light should still be...so then how....

See, this is the type of conversation that made me hide under the covers over at X-Files.

I'll just stare a Clark a bit, that will calm the neurons down.

*grins* You should be on AIM with us adn take the pressure off poor martianhousecat--i'm sitting here yelling about light speed and Swann and MHC is saying, spatial anomaly! Wormhole!

*hee*

We make our own fun.

We need M&G to consult scientists to get the details right!

And I wondered about the details of the other Kryptonian too. I am so freaking happy they finally have the name of the planet, though. Not being able to call the "meteor rocks" kryptonite was driving me spare.

What I'm curious about is what would Swann's reaction to Clark have been if he had read the message in the ship? Would he have decided to dissect Clark like the Kent's have always feared? Would he have wanted to see if Clark was friendly first? I think that's one of the most interesting questions I came away from the episode with.

*grins* Oh yes.

What makes me do my dance of amusement, though?

Clark wanted to keep his secret when he thought he was different. Doubly so when he figured out he was alien. Now? The boy cannot ever want to tell ANYONE--I'm not even sure Clark will tell PETE this part. Because it's exactly--EXACTLY--what humans fear. Aliens coming to earth to take over. Biggest. Fear. Ever. It's not just speculation now that he can say, no! No! I have no idea. He KNOWS now that he was meant as a conqueror.

Hee. Me bets that boy is sleeping BADLY now. Dreams of rain of blood. Though this does flip Lex's vision and Clark's vision from Hourglass again in really interesting ways.

Despite the fact Rosetta had so many science-holes and non-explanations, that ending made it ALL worth it. Oh hell yes.

*happy*

Awesome thoughts.

One theory (developed at K-site) says that Kryptonians had the technology to utilize the aforementioned wormhole. I don't understand that bit, but it has something to do with black holes and bending space. It also makes for some serious time differences, since space and time are sort of the same thing. I think that the time loss/gain depends on the wormhole. Just like there are tunnels that go from point A to point B, there are tunnels that go from time A to time B. I believe that current theory supports this, though I'm not a physics major or anything.

Anyways, if this is correct (and no guaruntees on that) then the first Kryptonian who came to Earth could have done so almost instantaneously or with a negligible loss of time (or perhaps he went to the future and then jumped back on the return trip so that Krypton was gone even longer). When Jor-el sent his son, something could have gone wrong (not unlikely considering that he did so in a hurry) caused the ship to be sent hundreds or thousands of years in the future, though only a short time passed for Baby!Clark. Three years, or no time at all, depending on yer preference. This is reminicent of the movie continuity, where Jor-el tells Clark something like, "by the time you get this message, Krypton will have been gone for thousands of years".

This means, that by our time, Krypton could have been gone long enough for the light to stop coming, while for Clark, very little time passed. Although, it stands to reason that if the star exploded into a supernova there would be some record of that. But I guess it's more dramatic to say that he found "nothing" when he looked.

Alpha Centauri is four light years away, I think? I don't know how many miles that is, but it's a lot. I'm not going to calculate it, it's prolly on the web. Light travels 5,900,000,000,000 miles in a year. I can't remember if Reeve said billions of miles or billions of light years...

He said billions of miles. I am more convinced than ever that M&G did no scientific research.

and of course that is all based on

dossier

2003-02-28 01:49 pm (UTC)

the assumption that Krypton guy A and shippy sue came to Earth the same way. maybe the Sun Krypton is there, but the planet is gone-- a blown up planet would hardly even be a blip on current satellite technology. Maybe the same technology that allowed the KGA to worm hole his way here and back again was the reason that the Krypton sun/planet virtually blipped out of space with hardly a gravitational wave to upset the universe (this, actually is my favorite).

Star Trek: it was all the babblefish they had in their ears that made it seem like they were all talking the same language. I'm sure of it. :)

cool musings. I so love stuff like this~ thanks!



2 cents... or more

(Anonymous)

2003-02-28 04:05 pm (UTC)

Oy. I'm obsessed with this ep and simply must get it out. You get to be the happy recipient since the ep made me read Handful of Dust… again *g*. You rock, by the way. I expect to pay for writing that good. Under the circumstances, I hope unending adoration will suffice.

The time necessary to send a space ship, or even a message transmission out of our solar system should take a prohibitive amount of time. In the Smallville Universe, we're talking science fiction that isn't based on earth based physics. We know next to nothing about the capabilities of the Kryptonians, except that they far exceed our own.

quotes from the ep...

Clark is able to decode the symbol on the barn (which is also one of the symbols on the disk)
Clark: "It's a symbol... from wherever I'm from. I means 'Hope'."
Later, in the Torch with Chloe, Swann's email to Clark supports Clark's interpretation of the symbol on the barn as, 'Hope' (a word also used in the first transmission received by Swann).

At Swann's Lab:
Swann: "Yes. It says, 'This is Kal-El of Krypton. Our infant son. Our last hope. Please protect him and deliver him from evil.'"
The 'evil' comment is bald-faced foreshadowing.

Swann pressures Clark into a tacit admission. Swann then displays the second part of the message that Clark decodes.
Clark: "We will be with you, Kal-El, all the days of your life."
(That one really cheesed me off too. Suspect that they had something a bit better lined up but decided it gave away too much. Also, isn't that a quote from Jor-El's message in Superman: The Movie?) Clark asks what that means. Personally, I think it opens the door for Jor-El to be popping up (or out) handing out unsolicited advice.

In the storm cellar with Dad, Clark decodes the creche symbols.
Clark: "It's a message from my biological father... I'm sure I'm reading it wrong."

Dad: "Why, what does it say?"

Clark: "'On this third planet from the star, Sol, you will be a god among men. They are a flawed race, rule them with strength, my son, that is where your greatness lies.'"
Teenage-panic ensues.

This puts him on level with Lex in another way. Both with fathers that seem to expect world domination and nothing less, and where we'll find how much weight nature vs. nurture has in the long run? So many story possibilities I was vibrating for DAYS!

Some additional ruminations on the cave wall disk penetration… heh. I'm facinated by the different colors of the rod 'o knowledge... red, blue, yellow, and the white (which could be the visible combination of all the colors), and those were the 'visible' colors. Obviously this phenomenon is meant to encode Clark's DNA with knowledge that he'd otherwise not posses. Clark mentions being 'downloaded with the language of his planet'. Why not just blue then (disregarding the pretty factor)? All of that just so he could read the language? Unlikely. Think about what else it could possibly have done to him. *eg* Perhaps a 'self-preservation' mode to preserve that whole last of the race thing? OooOOooh. Possibilities? Endless.

When Dr. Walden inserts the disk in the wall, we get 'some' of the same responses. The disk opens to the ... what are we calling that...? The Superman Symbol? The symbols around the opening glow white and begin to rotate. Then we depart from pattern. The Superman Symbol converts to an inverted triangle and we get a much more, um, sinister? Looking symbol just before the Doc is knocked ass over teakettle. Appropriately, the event is highly interpretable, presenting unending plotting possibilities.

Okay, I think that's it. Sorry about the length, but I feel immensely better. Hope you feel better soon. Virtual wellness on the way.

Teri

Not that I really think this, but.... maybe KGA came through a Stargate. (Of course, in that case, why send little Kal-El through space in a ship instead? Owell, nevermind...)

Maybe by the time Jor-El wanted to send his baby away from the exploding(?) planet, the Kryptonians had lost their Stargate-like technology. If they still had some sort of stasis and the relatively straightforward Shippy-Sue technology, then a little baby-sized escape pod might be way more doable. The data left behind by KGA would just give JE a place to point the baby. And it might have taken years and years for li'l Kal to get here.

We get the idea from older Superman canon that Jor-El knew about the imminent destruction of Krypton a lot sooner than everyone else did... in fact, they called him a looney, if I remember correctly.

What if the KGA came to Earth on a sanctioned trip via whatever time/space warping doo-dad they had, while little Kal ended up being sent in the Kryptonian version of the go-cart you and your Dad put together in the garage? If Jor-El wasn't part of the program that dealt with exploration (and there's no reason he should have been) the most he might have heard would be whatever rumors he heard, info that was part of public record, or stuff he managed to hack, depending on how much of it was available to public record. For all we know, KGA did his job quite well, but Jor-El couldn't get ahold of his reports.

Heck, Jor-El probably had to send little Kal off rather clandestinely. I imagine it would be a similar idea to "The US is going to be nuked sometime soon, so I'm going to put my baby in a rowboat and send him to Cuba." I doubt if anyone had known of his plans other than his wife/mate/whatever the hell Lara-El is, then he'd have probably been prevented from doing it. So add another layer of "why he did sloppy research" in, and you're building a pretty good chain of why he might say something so silly. :-)